So... 7 months later, how about unlocking this page, in some state or other?
David, you can work with us to remove the bogus reviews but you'll need to be civil and take the time to talk with us about things.
Specific suggestions on how to improve the original page
2009-09-17 19:39:14 My suggestions would be to:
- Delete ThumpersMom's comments and all related comments about Call Curtis (Kurtis)
- Keep BonnieGordon's comments, except the part related to Kurtis. Make it crystal clear that both comments are from a SuperDog employee.
- Keep mjbain's comment
- Keep my comment, of course. :-)
- Keep ciji87's comment and say that Dave Baron disputes the incident.
- Keep Lwidman's comment.
- Delete comments from debbyhomemaker and judgemiller. Both are Dave Baron and neither are in the context of an owner replying as an owner.
I am torn about whether to say anything about Dave Baron's threatening behavior here on the wiki and to several people on the phone. Part of me is tempted to just let it go, but I agree that someone who behaves so badly towards people probably can't be trusted to behave well towards dogs. (Even though I used SuperDog, I never met Dave Baron in person. I did talk to him on the phone when I first signed up).
As for the price of SuperDog, their own pages admit that the service isn't cheap. ("We are not the cheapest one but are affordable and really good." - http://www.doganswers.com/dog-training-sacramento.htm). Again, if they would post prices, then we could just say what the prices are, but you have to call to get a price quote.
So, similar to WL's suggestions, but not identical.
I definitely agree that a note about how Dave Baron disputes the incident in ciji87's comment is needed.
Anyway, I'm willing to be persuaded about the BonnieGordon comments. I guess I just see them as misinformation, especially in light of Mr. Baron's admitted astroturfing campaign. Also, she makes reference to hiring David Baron specifically, something Mr. Baron claims hasn't happened in awhile. Either she's lying or Mr. Baron is lying.
Also, something that wasn't mentioned before is that Mr. Baron has tried to libel one of his competitors. Check out this guy's edit history http://daviswiki.org/Users/someguy48?action=userinfo. —wl
2009-09-20 02:20:39 Since I don't know if Mr. Baron will state his point except by posting more e-mails and such, I suppose I'll try my best to reiterate his objections to every single negative comment on the page. He says there is a dispute with a rival dog trainer and this rival dog trainer has tried to defame him all over the net. He thinks that all the negative stuff on here is his work, thus it must be removed. Mr. Baron told me that this rival is the type of person who will threaten to do something and then will come back to brag about it. He claims that his rival has done this with a defamation campaign, although Mr. Baron never mentioned that this rival mentioned Davis Wiki specifically.—WilliamLewis
2009-09-20 04:48:20 How about a disclaimer similar to HIPAA Restrictions or Overwhelmed... a notice written for this entry (not an include, of course) that sums up the accusation of a rivalry having occurred on other sites (I've been forwarded some of the emails, and they seem to brag as William says), and the potential that the anonymous reviews are part of a systemic defamation campaign? If there *is* internet baggage associated with this business, it also makes sense to note that in general. —Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards
2009-09-20 13:48:58 My edit suggestions, written based off looking at CP's list above.
1 - delete Thumpermom's comment, but do not remove all mention of "Call Kurtis". If you look at the link Dr. Bain provided , the "Call Kurtis" piece *is* most definitely about this business. Thumpermom was partially right. Question is whether to integrate the link into a "Media" section instead.
2 - I see nothing overtly wrong with either Ciji's comment from 06, or the Lwidman one more recently. Saying Dave Baron disputes it should go there for sure, but can we please be very careful about attributing negative comments to the potential online rival? I don't think it's neccessary at all for the '06 comment - it doesn't exactly seem part of a malicious campaign. The posted emails Dave offered as proof seem absolutely awful (please talk to the police about those!), but Dave's behavior doesn't exactly make me disbelieve that second comment either (especially in light with his training reputation, that _can not_ be entirely based off an alleged online smear campaign). I think a disclaimer of an online rival is appropriate, but we've got to remember the scope of the comments here: just two negative clients; and he was disputing part's of CovertProfessor's mostly positive one. It's not a clear attack on the guy that he had a few displeased clients, and I dislike the notion of him trying to write them off.
3. Couple that with the multitude of edits done by BonnyGordon (editing other's, deleting, the comment's William saw saying another dog trainer does crack, etc) and I think that any kept BonnyGordon comment needs a solid disclaimer under it about her being an employee.
4. Keep Mjbains, CP's, and definitely delete the fake debbyhomemaker and judgemiller.
5. And I have no idea how to write it, but I do think some mention of his behavior should be somewhere. This guy threatened massive smear campaigns himself, threatened more than a few people over the phone, etc. It's certainly relevant to a behavior trainer. Perhaps someone can write it up in the same paragraph with the worries over the rival disclaimer.
6. With that said, I'll bring up a new point. I think the entry also needs to specifically mention that the UCD VMTH actually recommends against using this trainer. Especially with Bonny lying so hard about it (said the VMTH recommended them as the best in the country for aggressive dogs...). I mean, geeze, the Chief of Service of the Clinical Animal Behavior Service came on the wiki just to dispute that thoroughly. I think it's relevant.
2009-09-20 14:43:55 DavidBaron is clearly not interested in participating in the discussion here. However you folks want to resolve the issue is fine with me — be that removing his page or restoring it with pruned comments. —PhilipNeustrom
2009-09-20 14:52:29 Well, I just got a message on my page regarding this whole thing and I have to say that he can sound decent if he wants to be. I wouldn't mind meeting with him to explain things and how we are not related to whoever was stalking him before. But frankly, this seems like more effort than is worth. And in regards to him trying to libel his competitor, it seems as if both his business and the other business in question are basically at war with each other. Could there be back story we don't know about? Definitely. Should we really make Baron seem like the bad guy when we've seen him act irate even though we don't know how this other person is? No. For all we know, he is the "lesser of two evils" in this business warfare that we have found ourselves in the middle of. And yes, I just ended the sentence with "of." Twice now, in fact. —SunjeetBaadkar
2009-09-20 19:36:06 Just to reiterate my response to Sunny: Let's not burn more calories on this guy than we must. You can't reason with the unreasonable. It's like trying to divide by zero. Can't be done. People with legitimate issues/concerns do not proceed in such a manner. This guy's conclusions are illogical and his conduct is deplorable. We've all had negative experiences, and yet, we don't all go around making bogus allegations, bullying people and resorting to criminal threats.
The best way to deal with a bully is to ignore him. Failing that, report. Giving in to the unreasonable demands of people like this only encourages and rewards more abuse. Harassing, criminal behavior should not be tolerated. —CurlyGirl26
2009-11-16 13:31:06 bump. —EdWins
2009-12-18 18:11:28 So was there ever any kind of agreement about this place? The main page is still MIA. —JoePomidor
2010-09-28 16:51:50 How come this page is still locked? It's what... almost a year since the talk page was made? —MasonMurray
2010-09-28 16:58:04 The comments bar is titled "Specifics relating to how to improve the original page". My specific suggestion is to unlock the original page. It'll be an improvement :) —TomGarberson
2012-06-01 21:04:27 This is an old discussion and should be re-evaluated for resolution. —jefftolentino
2012-06-01 21:31:44 There are reasons this has languished. That doesn't mean that the context should go away or that something shouldn't be done eventually. —CovertProfessor
2015-08-18 18:45:53 Hi. Not sure if this is the place to comment on this or the Dog Trainer page. Super Dog has re-added a link to his website with the comment that he is positive reinforcement, which is incorrect. He also added a link to selecting a dog trainer, which was in the same sentence on how to select a dog trainer by the AVSAB. I separated Super Dog's addition/edit (didn't delete it, although it is just an advertisement and has no basis in fact), so that it doesn't look like the AVSAB recommends his website. —ThumpersMom