Users/RealComputers/Comment Archive - Davis

This is the comment archive for RealComputers. Normally such an archive would be created by the editor whose page it is attached to. As all comments are released under the creative commons license and many of them had value this is just an attempt to make them easier to follow instead of having to go back through the history by hand.

2009-04-24 15:42:31 Hello there and welcome to DavisWiki. You may want to consider the importance of using your RealName. Surely you as a person don't go around introducing yourself as Mr./Ms. RealComputers. If you do, however, I apologize.

I've deleted your ["Grand Openings"] page because it is just begging to go stale. People will write pages and just disappear. It's best to write in a way that such pages are applicable in the long term. If you want to announce your grand opening, head on over to the Events Board. It keeps the wiki more up to date and you'll probably get more attention there. —WilliamLewis

2009-04-24 16:06:32 I am amused that the best way you have found to criticize one of your competitors is to state that their techs aren't certified. Pretty much the only certification out there for general desktop repair is CompTIA's A+, which is an utter joke that I wouldn't recommend anyone waste their money on. All it proves is that you can regurgitate IRQ ports and understand computers on a very conceptual level, not that you have actual troubleshooting ability. Plus, the certification is for life with no requirement that you keep up with the current state of PC technology. I got the A+ a long time ago (on the government's dime!) and I don't bother putting it on my resumé anymore. It proves nothing and it makes me look amateurish if I actually believe it counts for anything.

Or do you expect a computer shop to have its employees go through each computer manufacturer's hardware repair programs? Admittedly, I never went after any of those, but I've seen training materials for a few as well as service manuals. A trained monkey could pass those certs and service these machines to the manufacturer's specifications. The rule for anything non-trivial seems to be "escalate to manufacturer," "reinstall operating system," or "replace logic board/video card/RAM" until the problem goes away.

Either way, your insistence that computer repair techs be certified brands you as an amateur.

—WilliamLewis

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-04-24 17:01:53 If you'll look around, you'll note that pretty much all the entries on the wiki are written in third person ("They" instead of "we"). Keep in mind that the wiki entry belongs to the entire community, and they will be adding opinions and making edits to the entry... you probably don't want to have it written in first person like that. —Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards, (814) 889-8845

2009-04-24 17:02:08 I have never contacted you off site. Take your accusations elsewhere. —WilliamLewis

2009-04-24 17:10:00 You might want to read the community written guide to the wiki for business owners. A key point you might be missing is that the Davis Wiki is not a business listing site. It is a community created resource for the city of Davis. The entry is not "yours", it is simply about your business. Anybody can edit it, and many many people will, over the course of time. —JabberWokky (By the way, that's why I had suggested earlier that you use your real name... you're a neighbor editing the wiki, not a business editing their database listing).

2009-04-24 17:23:20 The page for your business is as much mine as it is yours. This is a wiki that belongs to the entire community, not a site where anyone can come along and host a web page for themselves. If we intended to let business owners alone edit the pages for their businesses, do you think we'd let everyone edit them? —WilliamLewis

2009-04-24 18:12:45 Before this goes much further, you might consider: who wrote all the entries on this wiki? Did Borders write the Borders entry? Did the "owner" of sunflowers write the sunflowers entry? What about the Apple entry? The entire wiki has been written by the community of Davis and people with connections to Davis. You are a member of that community, but you are not the only member. Please respect your fellow editors, and calm down. It might be a good idea to take some time to cool off, and consider that there might be a simple and basic misunderstanding of what a wiki is and how it works around here. —JabberWokky

2009-04-24 18:22:43 All of those are people who editing that entry are honestly and actively trying to help you. I added the business template (the blue headers), and others came along and added information or corrected spelling. As part of that editing activity, many changes were made. If I added something like the information about Apple computers and tried to keep the first person wording, I would have been forced to type something along the lines of, "We do hardware repairs on Apple equipment". In otherwords, I would have been talking as if I were you... even though I was just adding useful information to the entry. By demanding first person, you are basically demanding that all other editors who make changes to that entry add them as if they were you. I'm guessing that you probably don't want that, especially if somebody adds something you don't agree with. By using third person, it makes it clear that the entry was written by many people about that topic. —JabberWokky

2009-04-24 18:28:01 THIS is your page. This one, right here. That is because it is a user page. The user gets to edit the user page. All others, besides a few like the user statistics and recent changes, etc., are editable by anyone. Those edits that will stay are those that are accepted by the majority. That majority is (mostly) people who regularly contribute, as evidenced by all the people who have been countering your edits. They are people who come here every day, and they have been regular visitors for, in many cases, years. Keep in mind that these are people who have helped to build the wiki into the community resource that it is today. They probably couldn't have done so if they were prone to making biased, unfair edits to pages, and that what they are doing is generally going to be the attitude reflected by the majority of people on the wiki. —JoePomidor

2009-04-24 18:28:27 I'm looking at your edit history and it looks like you got off to a rough start around here. I really suggest you read Welcome to the Wiki and the Welcome to the Wiki/Business Owner section. Then take a moment and cool down. Come back after that and ask any questions you have. —JasonAller

2009-04-24 19:56:01 Your business doesn't seem to be registered with the County Clerk Fictitious Business Name Lookup. The people who are changing the "we"s to "they"s are doing the right thing. —JasonAller

2009-04-24 19:59:28 For that matter you may want to look into the requirements for a business license with the City of Davis. Also you are going to look mightly funny if someone else comes along and registers BrianTangney as a username, aren't you? If you were posting under that name no one else could be using it, could they? —JasonAller

2009-04-24 20:14:48 It isn't "YOUR" wiki. Are you trying to get banned? —JasonAller

2009-04-24 20:38:08 Yeah, dude, it would suck if you got banned. —BrianTangney

2009-04-24 22:15:34 Hey dude, you're obviously more than a little pissed off about the state of your business page. I'd urge you to take a day to cool off and then come back and negotiate. Gnomes tend to be more reasonable when you're civil rather than engaging in edit wars. I'm sorry you're having such a negative experience with the wiki, but if you just try a little bit of diplomacy, I think all sides could be made happy. —AmitVainsencher

2009-04-25 06:54:00 What Amit said. Daviswiki routes around assitude. —JimStewart

Comments removed from page by RealComputers (twice)

2009-04-26 10:22:23 Sorry dude that everything seems to be going crappy for your foray here. It happens sometimes, people don't quite understand the wiki before they jump into it. Gotta calm down a bit though. Remember though, this is the internet, you don't want people to google your name and see ya calling people douches several times =/ Take a few deep breaths, and browse the rest of the wiki. Just skim some other business pages or something. —EdWins

2009-04-26 10:24:29 Are you now a student at UCD? I'm from the 925 too, San Ramon. —EdWins

Comments removed from page by RealComputers (twice)

2009-04-28 10:33:40 I haven't been rude. The wiki archives all the comments anyway there is no reason for senseless destruction. —MasonMurray

2009-04-28 10:45:49 I would love $15 an hour, but I'd rather work somewhere that's licensed and insured. —MasonMurray

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-04-28 11:03:30 Hey dude. Is it ok for there to be a blurb at the top of the page, such as I had wrote, saying "Owner of Real Computers, a new business in Davis that specializes in computer repair and design." or something similar? The reason is because as a project, the Wiki tries to keep all pages interconnected. If you delete this comment after hopefully reading, make sure you check the page Outgoing Links. There are only four pages on the wiki with zero links, that's why the top part keeps getting edited. The wiki tries not to have deadends or blank pages. I can understand deleting comments: you can delete them off this page hwenever you want, but the link at the top only helps you. It sends people to your business page directly if they end up here by accident, and it helps keep the Wiki flowing and organized. Please consider it. Also, thank you for the compromise on letting people adjust the Real Computers wikipage to words like "they" instead of "we." I know you were adamant about that, and perhaps don't quite get why yet, but I don't think anyone said thank you, even if some people tried to force it. Thanks. Hopefully you're getting a bit more accustomed to the wiki. It really is a great resource for Davis. —EdWins

2009-04-28 11:06:54 Also, do you work on Linux systems? My friend has an Eee-pc, 700 series.I might send him your way, I think he didn't like the price quotes other places gave. —EdWins

2009-04-28 11:18:30 It doesn't have to be a link to your business entry; it can be a link to anything, like "I live in Davis". Actually, as long as you have (linked and) signed comments on your page, you have outgoing links, so if you just keep one of these comments you're good to go. —ElleWeber

2009-04-28 11:19:13 Nobody is or has been "messing with you", Brian. We're all just neighbors and friends working together on a collaborative project. People are trying to work with you, not "mess with you". —JabberWokky

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-04-28 11:26:22 Heh, yeah, Joe did engage in a bit of jackassery. I think he just got frustrated and was trying to make a point to encourage you to use your real name. Honestly, it's a bit odd that you go by your business name (and yes, JabberWokky is a real world nickname that people call out to get my attention at theater events and over dinner. My wife calls me Wokky). The method used was a bit... uhhh... extra pointed. The wiki is like a large open pot luck picnic. We're all just neighbors and friends working together, each bringing something to the picnic and adding it to the community meal. —JabberWokky

2009-04-28 12:02:47 I think I can add a little bit more understanding to this: When I first joined one of my first several posts was attacked and it really pissed me off. The reason it was attacked this way is because it didn't flow. The wiki is an established part of Davis and has been for several years. It is supposed to be objective and fair to everyone and therefore there must be standards. Templates, editing practices... The point is if everyone does things differently this becomes an unusable amateurish waste of space as a whole. And that's not to say there's something wrong with your page, we just want it to match up with the rest of the wiki. —MasonMurray

Comment by Mason removed from page by RealComputers leaving the one from JabberWokky about Joe's jackassery

2009-04-28 12:13:53 I took the name when it was obvious you didnt want it. I made no attempt to conceal that I had it, or to change the IP address or anything. I freely admitted to having it, and offered it to you when asked. I also didnt make any malicious edits. My worst crime,a s far as i can figure, was reverting the edits you made to my personal page in which you insulted me. How is this jackassery? —JoePomidor

2009-04-28 12:26:59 I wasn't 'messing with you'. I was changing the Real Computers page so that the wording would be in the third person, more in line with the other business pages on the wiki. As a result, you started defacing my page and making disparaging comments. I admit that if i had taken the name with no provocation at all, and done anything malicious with it, it would have been jackassery. But I didnt. —JoePomidor

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-04-28 12:41:35 Dude i left your user page alone, but the business page is community property and everyone has the right to edit it. I would even argue, and many would agree, that if the business page has content or formatting problems, then anyone who notices those problems is obligated to fix them. I let you know why I made those edits, and the justification behind them. Your response was to ignore the reasoning, and then deface my personal page, which is the one page that I alone have exclusive rights to. I have not edited this page (beyond adding comments) because this is your page that you have the exclusive rights to. However, the Real Computers page is everyone's. —JoePomidor

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-05-04 18:31:54 Sorry, Mr. T, but that is kind of important information given the fact that you've been bad-mouthing a competitor. I will be doing the backoff editing approach this time, but others may not have quite as much patience as I do. —JoePomidor

2009-05-04 18:36:58 I was just reverting what looked to me like whitewashing. I'm not picking on you, you're just refusing to play by the rules and act like someone who understands this community. If everyone else decides to take a hands-off approach with this, then I will too, but try to think about how your actions look to impartial outsiders. —JoePomidor

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-05-04 18:44:28 You admitted that you used to work for them, however briefly, and it sounds like the end of that arrangement was not particularly pleasant. That sounds like an association to me. If this is the case, then let your new customer tell the story. You crossed the line when you started doing it for them. Nobody would have made a big deal, but when you personally start putting "they screwed up and I cleaned up" kinds of stories on your competitors pages, that tends to reek of poor ethics. —JoePomidor

2009-05-04 18:47:08 I am not trying to badmouth your business. I am trying to stop you from playing out your issues with your former employer on the wiki. You started this by making an issue with their work. If you delete your comments off of the HCS page, then I'll happily let the comment go off your own page (though I can't speak for other editors).

Just concentrate on your own business and leave HCS alone. I don't know what happened and none of us are in a position to judge, so just let it go. —CovertProfessor

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-05-04 18:52:27 You have *not* deleted your comments off of the HCS page. They are still there. Delete them, and I will leave you alone.

Oh, and don't call me "fool" — or any other name. I haven't called you any names. —CovertProfessor

2009-05-04 18:53:39 Why not delete them yourself? It would show the rest of the wiki that you are serious about getting along with others here. —CovertProfessor

2009-05-04 18:55:51 Ok, thanks for doing that. It was the right thing to do. —CovertProfessor

2009-05-04 18:59:42 I thought you wanted me to leave you alone?

But here is my explanation:

You are a former employee of HCS — no matter how briefly, no matter in what capacity, you worked there. Yes? Then you leave and become a competitor of theirs. Then you make a point of telling a story that makes HCS look bad. Maybe the story is true, maybe it isn't. The point is that the rest of the wiki editors can't judge the truth of the story for themselves, and we can't allow the wiki to become a place where competitors sling mud at one another. Surely you can understand that. —CovertProfessor

2009-05-04 18:59:47 It's wrong because you worked there, something went awry, you left, and then you tried to get a competitive advantage by airing some dirty laundry on that page. That's just not ethical and customers know better. —RyanMikulovsky

2009-05-04 19:02:32 Why do you think this? Why do you think you have background information on me when you dont? After I made a wiki, I was shocked by the fact that you could edit any page, and I , for fun, deleted a number of pages. I even edited the front page. At the time I did not know how this shit worked. I now understand the wiki so please do not hold what i did in my first few munutes here against me now. I am not trying to mess with anyones pages at all. —RealComputers

2009-05-04 19:04:59 To everyone who has issues with me, Yes I edited some pages in a way I regret when I first signed on to wiki. I did not understand the nature of this site. Now I do and I am not trying to do anything to anyone. Please do not hold things that I did before I was used to wiki against me. I am not defending the fact that I deleted a page or two (though I knew they would promptly get undleted so I dont see why its such a big deal). In anycase, I know better now so please just leave it at that. —RealComputers

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-05-04 19:16:05 I'm not trying to harass you. I just want the wiki to be as good as it can be. Look at things objectively:

The first thing you did on here was delete a page for a business you used to work for. You replaced it with comments trash talking your former employer who you are now in competition with.
You refuse to acknowledge that this website belongs to the community, not you, and that your insistence on editorial control over a page about your business is unreasonable.
The type of comment you left would have normally been removed long ago. Such a thing violates standards against shadiness that have quite a bit of precedent. In general, we don't allow competitors to trash-talk their competition. The only reason we haven't is because of your edit-warring, which means we need to figure out what to do with your bad behavior before we remove it.

Just step back and look at yourself. And then try to be reasonable and stop throwing temper tantrums. —WilliamLewis

2009-05-04 19:24:36 This is reduculous, I'm not doing anything wrong. I have even removed truthful comments at other request. If you have an Issue, please just tell me about it instead of "going after me" —Real Computers

2009-05-04 19:25:48 Dude we told you, repeatedly. Check out the help computers talk page, I transcribed a few of the comments you deleted off of here. I'm beginning to think you might have deleted them without even reading them... —JoePomidor

2009-05-04 19:28:11 Again, I'm not doing anything wrong, what is the problem? —RealComputers

2009-05-04 19:35:53 You are being unreasonable about this whole situation now. This isn't a personal attack, like you seem to think it is. Attacking your competitors in the way you are is unreasonable. —WilliamLewis

"Unreasonable"? He's removed his comments and admitted his mistakes. Unreasonable is continuing the argument because you have nothing better to do, William Lewis.

Comments removed from page by RealComputers (twice)

2009-05-05 01:48:39 As an aside, your habit of constantly deleting your comments on this entry as soon as you read them has made it quite difficult to untangle what is going on here. —JabberWokky

2009-05-05 01:49:08 Seconded. Chill out man! —PhilipNeustrom

2009-05-05 01:50:31 I'm sorry but people leave rude comments. I will delete them less frequently if this continues. —RealComputers

2009-05-05 01:52:28 I would like to chill out but at this point I dont think I'm doing anything wrong in anyway at all and yet people are constantly doing mean things. —RealComputers

2009-05-05 07:02:50 I agree; you don't think you are doing anything wrong. Take a look at Recent Changes this morning however and ask yourself why it is full of reverts and deletions. I don't know "you", all I see are your edits, but it looks like you would really benefit from trying to edit a few pages that have nothing to do with your business; I suspect that on topics you are less personally invested in you'd be more successful learning the rest of the lessons that you need in order to feel less attacked when trying to edit pages related to your business. —JasonAller

2009-05-05 08:12:49 My edits are so frequent because thats how frequently people write something rude, delete all my comments or something along these line. Clearly editing is not wrong. You cant try and tell me tht people are being mean to me because I edit my page. —RealComputers

2009-05-05 08:29:54 People aren't just trying to be rude. Keep in mind that some of your early edits drove away some of the more helpful editors, or caused them to sit back and wait it out while you "learned" the wiki. —JasonAller

2009-05-05 08:37:43 well I'm at that point now. Not to mention that the poeple who mess with me were never directly involved or affected by anything I did. They have taken it upon themselves to give me a hard time. —RealComputers

2009-05-05 08:51:15 They were and are directly vested in your edits. The Davis Wiki got to this size by people caring about the content and editing pages, often of topics that they had no financial interest in. Understanding this is a part of "learning" the wiki. —JasonAller

Edit 100

2009-05-05 08:59:19 If there was a better way to welcome you to the wiki that was missed, please let us know so that the same mistakes don't get repeated. —JasonAller

2009-05-05 09:01:30 Jason I understand your point however I can tell when someone is pick on me or when they are just making a correction or improvment. When people make corrections/improvments I do not interfer. I actually appriciate them. Most commonly though, people are just mean. I dont know if you noticed but use BlueDot, who I think is just a new account someone made to anonamously mess with me, has been deleting all my comments on tons of different pages, most of them not in anyway connected to any of these other "dramas". I asure you, I am only trying to protect my business from a bunch of punks messing around with it. I know My bueiness page is for everyone, but that doesnt mean it exclusively the property of those who seem to have issues with me so if i want to remove their mean edits/comments then .. well theres certainly nothing wrong with that. —Real Computers

2009-05-05 09:09:56 Check BlueDot's edit history and you will see that they have a long history with West Sac history. —JasonAller

2009-05-05 09:44:59 Ok, so he has a long edit history. That does not explain why he singled me out but whateve, he seems to have stoped now so no matter. —RealComputers

2009-05-05 10:52:22 Hey, I added in the part again where you worked at Help Computer Services, becuase it's true, but I also added in your part: You'll beat their prices. I don't think there was anything wrong with that comment. It's normal for almost all competitive businesses to say they'll do that "best price" guarantee type thing. The fact that you worked there briefly works in your favor, it helps people know your company will offer a better price. I don't consider a price-guarantee to be a bad thing as written at all. —EdWins

2009-05-05 14:19:29 Hey Brian, I edited the page after you. I put the response below the comment, rather than in the middle. The bigger thing is a general wiki rule. When someone leaves a comment, other people aren't supposed to directly edit it. You added the bit about 2 business days, which made sense. It's a wiki rule that applies to everyone though - even edits in which people fix typos and correct spelling are asked not to happen. The idea being that the comment comes from the person, and isn't altered. Generally, people are asked to respond to it. With your reply right below (and indented in), your point will still be made. Feel free to ask if you have any questions, I know it might be frustrating to have to learn all these general rules and conventions one by one. edit: The only "editing" of other peoples comments really generally allowed is fixing formatting, or when they mess up making a link because they don't know the markup, etc. If a comment is abusive, offensive, etc, it might be removed, but again, the general point is we don't. I'm not really good at explaining these types of things, so I hope I helped. —EdWins

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-05-06 18:10:46 If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? —JimStewart

2009-05-06 23:12:58 What makes you think there's a shortage of people in Davis that can build computers? —JimStewart

2009-05-07 09:13:13 What makes you think he said that? —AmyLeigh

An invalid inference with no grounds in what the Owner wrote. Perhaps there's something going on under the radar here that Jim Stewart didn't make the effort to write. —SolidSender

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-05-07 10:37:11 I'm going to guess that it was accidental when you deleted the Mac User Group from the Computer Repair entry? Could you please put it back? —JabberWokky

Sorry, JW — I didn't see your comment. I assumed that Brian wasn't careful with his reverts and put it back myself. —CovertProfessor

2009-05-07 11:02:24 My bad, I didnt mean to delete anything —RealComputers

No worries. I commented on it more to clarify it was an accident (since you did delete some things earlier) and give you the chance to fix it. :) Not a big deal. I think people are removing your entry in the volunteer section because the other ones are non-profit volunteers who fix computers for free out of goodwill and a sense of community, whereas you're a for-profit business that doesn't quite fit the category, although you offer some services for free, you don't actually to free "Computer Repair", which is the subject of the entry. Kind of like a bike repair place that does diagnostics for free, they don't really count as doing "free bike repair", whereas the community co-ops do provide free bike repair and accept donated parts teach classes, etc. —JabberWokky

2009-05-07 11:57:23 In firefox you can turn on the spell checker by going to about:config and setting the layout.spellcheckDefault to 2. —JasonAller

2009-05-07 12:30:02 Reply to JW, some people only need a diagnosis and can complete the repairs themselves. —RealComputers

2009-05-07 12:30:54 Whos going to see STAR KREK tonight? eh?? —RealComputers

2009-05-07 13:04:00 Quit deleting comments. If you persist, I'll open a discussion on getting you banned/locked. —JimStewart

Very strange, I put up a comment this morning and now its gone? It wasn't up there with the original recipe for sliced bread, but I put a little thought and time into it.

Did I somehow enter it incorrectly? I looked at it after editing and it looked okay. But what do I know?—SolidSender

2009-05-07 13:44:46 We've explained how daviswiki works and you have repeatedly chosen to ignore the advice so I'll go over it one more time, by the numbers. Daviswiki has a delete feature. It's not what you think it is. It is not for deleting comments. It's for fixing mistakes or removing information that violates daviswiki policy. Don't delete comments. I'll be straight with you. I'm guessing that you have Asperger's syndrome or some similar social disorder and you feel driven to control what you feel is yours. I'm going out on a limb here because I'm an Apie, I know the feelings and I've had to deal with it for the last 40 years. But here's the deal. Even though daviswiki might have pages with your name or business name on them. they aren't your pages. They are our pages. If you can't live with that, you ought not to participate. Walk away, let your customers add to pages relating to you and leave daviswiki alone. Otherwise you just look like a whiny kid that skulks around breaking things because he can't have his way. —JimStewart

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-05-07 14:34:14 I don't, but when you begin flame wars that I have to scroll through on the recent changes pages every day it bugs me. Do what you want with you page then leave it. —MasonMurray

Whew/Wow: It wasn't more than an hour ago I experimentally put a comment about my previously deleted comment, and now it's gone two. Let's see how long this one lasts. Who's the fastes deleter in the West? —SolidSender

2009-05-07 15:31:25 I'd like to make a suggestion, which I hope you take seriously. Walk away from the wiki for, oh, say two weeks. Then come back and make some edits that have nothing to do with your business — comment on some restaurants, for example, or edit a page that you have particular knowledge about. Maybe even make a page. In other words, show people that you're here to be a positive contributor to the wiki and not just here to promote your business. I think you'll find that things will go much more smoothly for you. —CovertProfessor

2009-05-07 15:33:08 I'm just going to delete my comments everytime I use wiki. Period. its pointless for you poeple o keep posting things here. —Real Computers

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-05-07 15:34:53 Oh well — that's what I get for trying to be positive and helpful. Just keep kicking people in the teeth and see what happens. You're not helping your business, btw. —CovertProfessor

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-05-07 16:07:34 As long as you are a part of this wiki community, people will communicate with you. We're not harassing you. We're trying to help you fit in here and avoid further conflict. If you dislike this, I suggest you leave before you get more upset than you have already, because as long as you keep on editing, people will keep on talking to you. It's part of being a part of our wiki community. —WilliamLewis

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-05-07 17:59:50 Since you seem baffled, I'll give you one reason: your recent addition of your business as providing a free service struck some editors as inappropriate. That's the sort of issue that usually gets hashed out, with different people taking different sides and trying to come to consensus. But instead, you just revert edits and refuse to engage with others. As William Lewis pointed out, that's not how the wiki works. Communication is part of the game. You're trying to invent your own game, where you do your own thing but don't engage with anyone else. It won't work. —CovertProfessor

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2009-05-07 18:55:17 Continual removal of comments may be prompting more to be left? If people come here and see that someone else has already said it, they might not feel the need to pile on, but if they come here and see a blank slate they are more likely to "help educate" you. —JasonAller

2009-05-07 20:19:36 Exactly what other people are saying. The wiki has been here long before you came along and it will remain long after you leave. See Departed Businesses. If you would like to be left alone you are fully welcome to leave at any time, and the wiki users will maintain your page for you. Instead of listening to the patient explanations of our regular editors you've gone about this as if it were your usual anonymous message board, which it decidedly is not. Repeated reverts can be tracked, and all of the old comments from your page are archived, but I haven't the time to waste nor the energy to track them down. Therefore from now on I'm going to assume that if it isn't present, it has not been said. —MasonMurray

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Edit 150

"This webpage is mind-boggling, it reminds me of a real bad case of writer's block—the worst case scenario, where I write things, and then they disappear into the wild white yonder. Could there be a page where all the deletions go? I'll be they're pretty interesting. —SolidSender

Yep! here. (which is just clicking the info button on top of any page; you can always get the page's full history) —WesHardaker

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Comments left here will be deleted, as is is everyones right to have control over teir own personal wiki page. In this case, the user behind this page has decided to delete his comments. That is his right. Please do not push the issue, as it it quite pointless.

It doesnt matter how rude you may think it is, you're intentionally using hateful language and being insulting, while everyone else is, at most, being bothersome. you really just don't seem to understand anything we say, though, so I don't see much point in trying to convey why i am taking the actions I am. I might as well just go outside and shout my reasons at the sky, for all the difference it would make. And yes, i deleted your comments from my personal user page. I am allowed to do that. if i had a business page, then it would be different. You do realize that we're not going to 'leave you alone' if you keep making bad edits, so the two choices for being left alone are either stop making bad edits, or leave entirely. Those are your options, and they are the only options.—JoePomidor

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On the contrary, you will note how your first rude comment re: Help was left up until you decided to remove it. Defacing a page (Your 3rd edit) will be cleaned. When a rude comment is posted the poster is asked to consider if it is cor.... you know what? there's obviously no point in explaining it to you yet again. —MasonMurray

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Rude comments left on this page will be deleted. If you want to debate the issue of deleting comments, please go to wiki ethics

We are playing nice. It's just that only one of us is following the rules. In the future, consider who you may offend before posting inflammatory comments. The rules are different here, and you need to learn them if you don't want to step on toes. This website is as a whole is not yours. We have different rues, and if you don't like them you don't need to stay. —MasonMurray

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A lot of people on the wiki think you've been a jerk who has said hateful things and has acted ike a little kid. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you can insist on nobody mentioning it on your business page. Look at Crepeville. The owner is considered to be an asshole by some and it's important that it's on the page. It's information some people find relevant. We're not going to make an exception to the precedent to allow such things just because you've discovered the revert button. —WilliamLewis

Please don't rearrange replies so they respond to comments in a way that don't make sense. It makes things more confusing to follow. Also, we separate replies by indentation, not by adding another hr. —WilliamLewis

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There is no rule. I personally think that it makes your business stand out above the others, which is not fair to the other businesses. If you'd like to discuss that with the wiki community, add a comment to the Talk page and we'll see how we all think about it and come to a group decision. There's no rule, per se, just people working together as a community. —Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards

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Hey Brian, I'll try to help clear a few problems up. I think there's a few issues at stake, and in being a bit new, you're blurring the lines. JabberWokky is doing what he can to help distinguish.

Issue 1: This /user page, versus the business page. You've already learned the main difference. The basic idea is the user/ page is "yours" in that you can edit and delete what you want, where as the business page is kind of community neutral. The problem some people are having isn't whether you were allowed to delete comments, but that you were doing it "mid conversation." I haven't been involved the last day or two, and for me to understand the problems and try to help, I've had to hit the "info button" and look at the changes 1 by 1. That's rather annoying for me. I know that this is "your" page, but while people are arguing on multiple pages, I'm trying to get the full story. To see what has been said, or what hasn't and then I can try to help.

Issue 2: What is and isn't tolerated. Jim seemed to misunderstand this was the personal page and complained about your deletions, which SolidSender did too. SolidSender left some comments here, it was fine to respond to it or even delete it (though it's more polite to respond somehow). I realize you were trying to prove a point about "people want to delete bad things on their page", but the way you did it by being vulgar on his page was inappropriate. I think you know that too, it was a bit of a kneejerk reaction. That's putting it in the nicest possible way. I felt some people were ganging up on you for some newbie mistakes, but when you go that route, it's inexcusable. I'm a bit hardpressed to defend you. Someone who lashes out, even if they feel cornered, isn't going to get much sympathy or understanding. If you feel people have been writing "rude" comments, you've got to take a few hours to do something else before coming to the wiki. I promise, it helps put it in perspecitve. Hopefully you know I've left a few comments trying to help explain things in nicer ways than certain people, and that this isn't meant as a 'rude' comment. (Personally, as an aside, I felt the bulk of comments originally to you were not rude, intentional or unintentional).

Issue 3: The use of /talk pages. Talk pages are about the specific page in question. I bring this up because there's a few floating around now. The idea is, if people are arguing about what to add or not to add to a page, we use a /talk page to prevent cluttering and messing up the original page. For an example, look here on a page about Zachary's Pizza. That specific talk page was whether the pizza place should be on the wiki. Talk pages are typically a behind-the-scences talk about content. Sometimes they're about organization, sometimes they're about whether comments are fake and should be removed, etc. The Real Computers/Talk page is only about Real Computers, the ["Computer Repair/talk"] page is only about Computer Repair. I think that's what Jabberwokky was trying to explain about getting back on track.

Issue 4: "Community and rep." This one will likely be solved on the talk page. JoePomidor is adding that information as a comment because he feels it's worth noting, and not as part of the entry probably to avoid problems of a sort. But here's the summary: if you go around and leave insulting vulgar comments, even to try to make a point, people are going to want to let others know that and inevitably associate it with your business page. This isn't a normal website forum, or even Yelp with business listings. It's a community-oriented wiki. People love to compare the wiki to some sort of function, like going to the farmers market. Let me put it this way: if someone was trying to setup a booth at the farmers market, got in a fight with a few neighbors, and started throwing tomatoes in a tantrum, it'd be noteworthy. Someone would surely add it to the page. You're essentially doing the same thing in anger. You can't do that dude. And if you do, I promise you, other people will surely end up tacking that on to your page. You may feel that it doesn't make sense, and maybe the guy at the farmers market think's its lame that people are associating his one time tomato throwing incident with his business, but the link will be made. And because the page is "about" your business, and you are the head guy, people will consider it relevant. And because it's also "about" your page, you can't really filter it out. While the Wiki is more editable, I guess you could consider whether if someone published an article about the farmers market and included the tomato-throwing incident, the guy couldn't do anything to remove it. What he could try to do though, is to write an op-ed piece, apologize and explain his position, and do his best from then on to make it up. I'm pretty sure that still being new, if you take a few breathers, apologize, and edit carefully Joe might relent and not want to add it as a comment.

edit: as an addendum, people *do* care about the business owners, even when some business owners feel it's "not relevant." Around election time, a lot of people were fighting on the wiki, whether it should mention whether businesses did or did not donate money for/against the gay marriage proposition. There were a lot of comments tagged with comments, then talk pages on whether it counts or not. The end decision of the wiki was to mention "noteworthy" events. Here is the page: Campaign Contributions/Proposition 8 (2008). Ultimately, what the business owners did publically was noted. Some people felt it's not relevant and might hurt the business unfairly, other people felt it was very relevant and said they might not use certain businesses again. Donating publically to political events has nothing to do with how good a lawyer is, but it might just affect their reputation and their clients may care. I'm trying to explain this to let you know that leaving a comment on the wiki isn't simply leaving a comment. If you sent a letter to the newspaper and they printed it, they can't unprint it. Unlike a newspaper, here you can try to fix a mistake, apologize, and move on. I hope that makes sense. I know many people try to explain this in many different ways, and I tried a little bit from all sides to hopefully make it clear to you what they are trying to say.

Please consider that. Take some time and edit other pages. You've surely eaten in restaurants, review a couple of time. Got any favorite parks? Tell us why. Consider it networking, trying to make friends and fit in. I promise, the wiki will surely feel like it'll be a lot easier on you. I bet right now you're suffering a little of "why is it everyone vs me?" I'm not against anyone, and I've generally just watched the edits, but I'm trying to help a little now. Take an hour or a day, and again, consider it and look at the wiki overall. Don't let a specific page stress you out, and don't let the situation cause both you and Joe (for example) entrench yourselves. It'll only make it harder later. -ES

I understand what your saying. I have lased out a few times. However, note that these things do not happen for no reason. When people edit my page constantly, re-doing old rude comments one can not help but to eventually "lash out", however I did delete that comment shortly after. MY ONLY CONCERN is that people use some logic and common sense when posting comments on the real computer page. What joe wrote was not appropriate because it 10 had nothing to do with business and was taken out of context from an entierly seperate conversation, 2) Joe has never met me nor has he ever been a customer of mine so he definitely does not have any idea about how my business operates and how I treat my customers, yet he infrs that I treat them badly because I am suposidly rude constantly, and 3) Joe clearly does not like me and comments he makes on my business page should be carefully looked at for this reason alone. 4) only things relevent to the business should be on business pages. Someone made a comment that there are some pages where epople leave comments that say things like "the owner of this business is nasty, he treats his customers badly" and that because thats ok, Joe's comment should be ok. THE TWO ARE NOT RELATED. One is a real comment from a real customer about how the owner operates his business. The other is a comment about a personal conversation that is not related to business and never did. If Joe's comment were ok then I would expect it would also be ok for people to list things ive done, places ive gone, people ive slept with and just about anything else about ME that is not relevent to BUSINESS or how the business is run. Joe is not commentsing on anything helpful as you say, he is trying only to hurt me. He has been doing this the whole time I have been on wiki and is infact the first person to start editing my personal page which set this whole thing off. If there is one person in this whole debate that is clearly not "nuetral" besides me, then it is obvously joe. The fact that you dont see that simply means you have not seen all thats happened. You see only my reactions to things and not the causes. U asume I'm being a dick when I'm being hasarred.

Any also, I guess I am hearing that you guys prefer for a conversation to happen all on one page, which makes sense. I had been replying to whoever made comments at me directly, through their page but I wont do tat if this is prefered.

And one more thing, you guys have no idea how much opposition I have been up against (and for what?) just the other day, bluedot went and deleted every comment i had made on any pages anywhere, even comments I had made on my wifes page. It had nothing to do with my business or anything. There was no apparent cause. This kind of thing keeps happening to me so YES i AM ON EDGE. YOU WOULD BE TOO.

It tends to go both ways. I think in this case, what I meant above, was that people not involved in the conversation wanted to try to keep up, because the conversation was relevant to other pages in the wiki. By it tends to go both ways, I meant that people sometimes reply on their own page (this is best for context), or reply directly on the other persons page so that when they see it when they login. Personally, for "short" comments I do a direct response, and for "long" conversational comments, I think it's best to keep it on one page for easy reading, and on the other persons page put a short note like "I responded to your comment on my page."

Skimming your response to mine, I'll only repoint out the paragraph and addendum I had under issue 3: What people donated against gay marriage has absolutely nothing to do with how good they are at owning a business, but some people really care. It doesn't have to be about your business, but because it has to do with you, and you're the owner, it reflects on the business you're representing. Again, if you said the word "fag" at a city hall meeting or at a farmers market and some reporter was around, you can bet people in the public would hear about it! The point is that the wiki is a serious thing, even if it does not seem so due to how easily things are added or deleted, it still is. Lashing out, even in context of feeling cornered, is bound to be noticed. Some people may not care, some people do care. It's the risk any person has when out in public - that your actions or words, whatever the context, will come back. Keep in mind to my example...no one has any idea what context people donated to the gay marriage proposition, all we have is the action. Another example is "Sam's Mediterranean/Politics". That one has even less context, skim the page, it's a lot of talk based on an alleged story. In the city of Davis, people care very much about social issues, and vulgar slurs are along the same line to many. I ask again, what does donating to gay marriage have with running a business? Nothing. But to some people, the character of the owner is more important. And thus, as in my example above, it becomes noteworthy.

If you choose to respond to rude comments rudely, then someone will end up putting it on your business page. It may even just be a "He's not very friendly" thing. If you look at other wiki pages, you can see some restaurants for example, on the entry, have things saying the owner is rude, or the waiters are mean, or the owner is super nice and so are the waiters, etc. You are only human, but you have a business you're trying to represent with your name. Yeah, maybe it is tat-for-tat, but most of the other people do not have businesses riding on the stakes. That's a decision you need to, as an owner, consider. Public image.

On the issue of Bluedot - nobody allows that. His edits were reverted. No one is allowed malicious editing. It's happened before, and it'll happen again, but what's really important is that no matter who starts it, it's still wrong. (And people will put a stop to it).

On the personal question you asked me, I just started graduate school at UCLA. I'm trying to do some experiments involving RNA from bacteria, and I can't get a good, pure sample to work with. So basically I'm redoing the same things over and over with minor tweaks. Have you ever baked or cooked a dessert? It's kind of similar, in that sometimes the dessert is too fluffy, sometimes it's too soft, sometimes it's watery, etc. And yet it feels like I'm doing the same thing over and over. I'm doing something differently, and trying to figure out what it is. Perfecting a recipe sucks.

last point: You might want to put the comment bar back on your page. It time stamps comments and automatically threads them, it's usually used to help organize. It doesn't make it any harder for people to leave comments to remove it :P -ES

I do not like to make initial rude comments to anyone, but I sometimes will respond to a rude comment/instance with another rude comment. I'm only human, we all do the best we can.

Humans made manners. —[Users/"SolidSender"]

Please take into consideration that I would not be so touchy if things like what happened with bluedot had not been happeneing to me all along. If you guys just back off for a while, let this all blow over I do not see why any other issues would spawn.

Maybe I wouldnt be like this if I didnt have to worry about how many rude comments there are going to be added to my page every time I check wiki. Sure, I'm touchy and sometimes rude, so let me cool down and I promise it will end!

2009-05-08 17:09:25 just a side note: that edit conflict thing that kept showing up means that someone edited the page while you were doing so too. if you refresh the edit page and re-add the edits you made with copy-pasting, it should keep those warnings from showing up in your final edit. —JoePomidor

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2009-05-09 17:18:26 It's very tedious. I'm a first year, and I'm finishing up my third rotation. Each rotation is basically a trial internship, and at the end of the year, one of the three labs I rotated in will hire me and become my lab. So oftentimes, the crappyish research projects no one wants to do go to the rotation students. That's kind of the goal...if I do all the crappy grunt work to figure out the right recipe, people will use it. This lab works on disease causing bacteria, and if I can manage to get the RNA out reliably, we can use some cool bioinformatics to learn more about them. This may be more than what you wanted to know, but since you asked :P —EdWins

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2009-05-12 15:46:54 I could use your help with something. As you're going to be on the wiki @ some point to check on your pages. I'm currently trying to work on woodland's wiki and could use all kinds of help. I know you go to school out there and I need lot's of pictures of notable buildings, businesses and any information you could add to the wiki (Phone numbers, hours of operation, etc.) Thanks in advance! —MasonMurray

2009-05-12 16:08:47 I think I should also make it clear that I have no problems with you. None at all, even considering your previous behavior on the wiki. My work is not my primary concern here. I get paid every week on Friday, $9 an hour regardless. The wiki is an invaluable community resource which I regularly use for a myriad of reasons and I feel it is my duty to respect everyone who writes anything on it equally. There are those that contribute more or more regularly and their words are given more weight, but the wiki is nothing if not a massive collection of edits collected over the years. —MasonMurray

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2009-05-26 14:21:25 Just FYI, PhilipNeustrom is the closest thing we have to a head administrator here. He founded the place and is the Executive Director of Wiki Spot. —WilliamLewis

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2009-05-26 16:27:20 A few hints on logo design: It should be printable, which implies that it can be reduced to two colors without loss of identity. Take some time to pick the font used as the font you pick can be reused to brand your image throughout other graphics you create. —JasonAller

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2009-07-16 09:57:21 In your opinion what percentage of computer problems are related to overheating? —JasonAller

2009-07-16 13:19:48 It's a very very simple question: Do you provide "Free Repair and Service"? Yes or no... and if the answer is no, why are you adding your business that charges for repairs into that section? —JabberWokky

2009-07-16 13:41:25 Are you doing Free Repair AND Service? As in, are all your services free, or do you charge a fee for some repairs or services? —JabberWokky

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2009-07-16 14:09:14 Telling JabberWokky to back off demonstrates a lack of situational awareness. —JasonAller

2009-07-16 14:12:24 Brian, I have nothing but respect and sympathy for you. I only ever removed your listing once, and I don't plan on removing it again. I have no problem with you, and I like your business... heck, I'm a business owner myself, and I'm generally one of the most pro-business-on-the-wiki editors around. It sincerely upsets me that you think I have any problem with you, and I am genuinely physically sick at that thought (that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach). Brian - I tell you now, and I fully mean it: I will absolutely and dedicatedly support any fellow editor here on the wiki. That also means that I look at your actions and see a half dozen different editors who have removed it, and I try to figure out where your head is at... a difficult proposition early on, as you were difficult to communicate with. Seriously, Brian, there's not a drop of personal animosity here. I promise. —Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards, (814) 889-8845

2009-07-16 14:20:12 I disagree with your comment jason but whatever, Can we just drop this? Are we good or is there more to be said? I bevieve my comments on the computer repair page to be very fitting. In the past I did not have the fact that I will aslo provide free over the phone troubleshooting listed, though it was always available. I feel that what is now listed belongs. —RealComputers

2009-07-16 14:23:55 Furthermore, you two (jason especially) where extremely harassing when I firts signed on to wiki. I felt like you were both bullies. I understand this was not your intention (or so I would like to believe) but neither of you are very good at explaining to new users why you delete their comments in non-confrontational way. The confusion and chaos that took place then arised from impatience from all three of us, which is why you should both let others decide on this issue. You have both argued with me too much in the past. —RealComputers

2009-07-16 14:44:45 Again I'll ask the question because I want to learn. How could the process of welcoming new people to the Wiki Community be improved. Take a look at my edit history and find examples. I'd be happy to learn how to adjust my tone. I don't participate here because I want to harass people, so help me to improve. I don't think that either JabberWokky or myself see this as arguing, but rather engaging in discussion. Not talking to new people does nothing to help them fit in and gains us no knowledge about how to improve the Wiki. —JasonAller

2009-07-16 14:52:40 Jason you openly harrased me when in the beginning. I am not going to rehash the arguments with you. You nedd to more throughly explain the intentions o your actions the the actual person you are affecting, and not as if you are trying to impress an audience. You quickly resorted to rudness, you deleted my pages enterly more than once as I recall. The idea that you are even asking me this question is somewhat backwards. Simply put, dont be so rude next time and rudeness will not be returned to you so readily. —RealComputers

2009-07-16 15:03:40 Please give me examples to avoid in the future by linking to specific edits in my edit history. I'm sure that there are examples in there that I could learn from. I do try to use Welcome to the Wiki, but If I'm not doing an effective job I'd like to learn so that I can do better. —JasonAller

2009-07-16 15:17:06 I am not going to contiune this discussion. I have already stated how I feel you need to improve and that I am not willing to rehash past arguments. —RealComputers

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2009-07-16 15:35:43 I've looked at http://daviswiki.org/Real_Computers?action=info and http://daviswiki.org/Users/RealComputers?action=info. Please let me know how that progression of edits should have been handled differently. You said I was openly harassing, but I'm missing that. I wonder if you are confusing me with another editor.

On another topic, when you clean out a laptop with an overheating problem do you have a favorite set of temperature monitoring software to recommend so that users can monitor the temperature themselves on an ongoing basis? —JasonAller

2009-07-16 15:57:04 You deleted my business page and this page moe than once. I would say that qaulifies, aswell as your refusal to let this convo die after several requests. This is my last statement on this issue. I will continue this conversation again with you on monday, if you still eel it is needed. —RealComputers

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2009-07-16 16:06:10 I just went back through the edit history of both pages. I can't find where I deleted either page. I restored one of the pages once after someone else deleted it. Please provide a link to a specific edit history entry if I've missed what you are referring to.

Yes, I'm continuing the conversation. I'm doing that because I don't feel it is over and I'm trying to reconcile what you've said about me here with what the record is showing. —JasonAller

2009-07-16 16:07:56 Whatever jason, maybe I am wrong due to the fact that so much was going on at the time. Either way this conversation is over. —RealComputers

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2009-07-16 20:04:34 I uninstalled crysis a while ago, AND about 75% of the time super powered/invincibility mods make the game... not fun. Probably just personal preference. BTW, you have any loose work or on sites you could throw my way? Things have been slow @ the shop lately. —MasonMurray

2009-07-25 15:37:18 If you have any other bike problems come up, feel free to swing by my shop APEX Cycles. I'll treat you way better than B&L. —Aaron.Curtin

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2009-07-27 16:51:29 Hi, if you are in business and take peoples money, you are not a free service. Its very simple. —NickSchmalenberger

I am in business to provide services. Some of my service are free and others are not. Your view of business is very black and white. Mine is not. A good business provides a pay service aswell as a free service that should be benificial to the community. Such is the "text book" definition of a good business. The fact that some of my services are not free does not negate the fact that other very serious services are free. You are hindering peoples ability to experience these free services by trying to negate them. Business and computers have been my main focuses of study all my life.

2009-07-27 18:01:26 I think an easy way to think about it is you can only be listed once on that repair page, and your company overall fits in under 'Commercial Repair'. It already mentions that you provide free diagnostics on that line. Trying to plug it in again I think seems a bit underhanded to other people, because you'd be the only place listed twice, and also mentioning free diagnostics twice. It's not really fair on the page and it stands out, which is why (I think) one reason people are removing it. —EdWins

I am in business to provide services. Some of my service are free and others are not. Your view of business is very black and white. Mine is not. A good business provides a pay service aswell as a free service that should be benificial to the community. Such is the "text book" definition of a good business. The fact that some of my services are not free does not negate the fact that other very serious services are free. You are hindering peoples ability to experience these free services by trying to negate them. Business and computers have been my main focuses of study all my life.

2009-07-28 02:41:36 A diagnostics is a free service. Often times when a person knows whats wrong with their computer it enables them to fix it themselves. I also provide free troubleshooting, which is a substatial service in itself.

A diagnostics is a free service. Troubleshooting is a free service. Often times these things lead to a complete repair.

—RealComputers

2009-07-28 02:45:24 I did not add any links to the listing I provided under the free section, however some of what I provide is a substatial free computer service and some of what I provide is a pay service. Both listing are valid, and there is only one link. It is very simple, if you offer free service then you offer free service. If you doubt this then try me, see how far I will take a computer repair situation without charge before you try to discredit me. —RealComputers

2009-07-28 02:49:42 I will defend the fact that the free service I provide are a vaild listing under the free service section very adamantly because nothing you can say will negate the fact that I offer susbstatial free service, and if you know much about computer repair then you know that diagnostics and troubleshooting are a big deal and often very expensive. If you feel the need to continue this discussion, please provide more evidence for your claims/argument. —RealComputers

2009-07-28 03:16:46 In an effort to appease you naysayers, I have expanded the nature of my free services to include more, aswell as detached the business real computers from the free services that I, Brian Tangney, provide. —RealComputers

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2009-07-28 07:58:27 You are already listed on Computer Repair once. Please stop adding yourself where you don't belong. —WilliamLewis

2009-07-28 08:08:18 I've been against you from day one because you've been underhanded, disrespectful of the wiki community, and have generally crapped over all the pages you've touched as you try to promote your business. Quite frankly, I don't care if your business succeeds or fails. I have nothing against you personally. I'm interested in the wiki being the best that it can be. You're abusing it as a tool to drum up business. —WilliamLewis

2009-07-28 08:09:09 Please stop editing Computer Repair. —WilliamLewis

2009-07-28 08:12:26 I've moved what you're offering from the free services section to the heading under your business, where it belongs. —WilliamLewis

2009-07-28 08:17:47 Brian, it is clear from your edit history on that page that any "free service" you offer is there as a potential upsell for your commercial service. I've already listed the free things you claim you'll do under your entry, where it belongs. Please stop editing the page. —WilliamLewis

2009-07-28 08:20:44 Dude, this has nothing with being competitive. There were two volunteers listed on that page and both of them left town. I added myself because the section was empty. Nobody to date has taken me up on my offer based on what I've posted on the wiki. I really don't care about being listed there anymore. I do care about commercial services masquerading as something that is "free." —WilliamLewis

2009-07-28 08:25:02 Please stop reverting, and consider that Wes tried to find a compromise that works for you which you rejected. Are you unwilling to meet other editors half way? —JabberWokky

2009-07-28 08:26:37 William is just deleting my listing. Other than that, I corrected spelling by wes aswell as removed about three words. —RealComputers

2009-07-28 08:32:31 I wasn't deleting your listing. I moved it to where it belongs. —WilliamLewis

2009-07-28 08:33:26 I am curious to know what about the listing "Brian Tangney (925-915-1522) will perform the following computer sercives for free: Diagnostics (over the phone or in person), Troubleshooting (over the phone or in person), as well as any computer repairs that does not require that your or computer be taken apart or that the operating system be reinstalled. Guaranteed." does not qualify as a free service. —RealComputers

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2009-07-28 08:25:02 Please stop reverting, and consider that Wes tried to find a compromise that works for you which you rejected. Are you unwilling to meet other editors half way? —JabberWokky

2009-07-28 08:26:37 William is just deleting my listing. Other than that, I corrected spelling by wes aswell as removed about three words. —RealComputers

You removed his edits, which seemed to be a sympathetic effort to move your wording toward something that was more acceptable to the community as a whole. Comparing your edits and his edits, you simply deleted every change he made in the description about your services. Again, I ask you: are you unwilling to meet other editors half way? —gnome Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards

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2009-07-28 08:47:09 If you want to restore it to his version then by all means go ahead, but if you do please correct his spelling error. I infact preserved most of what he changed. —RealComputers0 =

2009-07-28 08:48:36 It's out of my hands, Brian. It's up to you and William to work it out. Again, are you unwilling to meet other editors half way? —gnome Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards, (814) 889-8845

I am more than willing. I want my name and the fact that I provide free service aswell as a method of contact to be listed in the free section. The wording can be decided by whoever, I only care that it is not worded in an underhandly rude way. - Brian

2009-07-28 08:52:51 What spelling error? —WilliamLewis

2009-07-28 08:59:13 Before wes edited the page : Free Computer Repair & Support Davis Mac Users Group (DMUG) is a good place to get Mac advice; see the wiki page for instructions on subscribing to their listserv. LUGOD provides free Linux installation, education and assistance; attend one of their regular installfest workshops and talk to one of the hundreds of members For a free computer diagnostic, in person or over the phone, contact Brian Tangney. (925-915-1522) Brian will perform the following computer sercives for free: Diagnostics (over the phone or in person), Troubleshooting (over the phone or in person), aswell as any computer repairs that does not require that your or computer be taken apart or that the operating system be reinstalled. Guaranteed. Contact any of these awesome volunteers! (Add your name here.) WilliamLewis worked as a repair tech and network administrator for three years. He's retired from the business, but he can probably be coaxed into helping you if you're a cool person and/or you offer cookies and beer. Try out the computer questions page. After wes edited the page

Free Computer Repair & Support Davis Mac Users Group (DMUG) is a good place to get Mac advice; see the wiki page for instructions on subscribing to their listserv. LUGOD provides free Linux installation, education and assistance; attend one of their regular installfest workshops and talk to one of the hundreds of members Contact any of these awesome volunteers! (Add your name here.) WilliamLewis worked as a repair tech and network administrator for three years. He's retired from the business, but he can probably be coaxed into helping you if you're a cool person and/or you offer cookies and beer. Brian Tangney. (925-915-1522) say he will perform the following computer sercives for free: Diagnostics (over the phone or in person), Troubleshooting (over the phone or in person), as well as any computer repairs that does not require that your or computer be taken apart or that the operating system be reinstalled. Guaranteed. But he may try and sell you other services beyond his free offerings. Try out the computer questions page.

Spelling error : he say he will perform ... Changes I made to wes's edit

Free Computer Repair & Support Davis Mac Users Group (DMUG) is a good place to get Mac advice; see the wiki page for instructions on subscribing to their listserv. LUGOD provides free Linux installation, education and assistance; attend one of their regular installfest workshops and talk to one of the hundreds of members Contact any of these awesome volunteers! (Add your name here.) WilliamLewis worked as a repair tech and network administrator for three years. He's retired from the business, but he can probably be coaxed into helping you if you're a cool person and/or you offer cookies and beer. Brian Tangney (925-915-1522) will perform the following computer sercives for free: Diagnostics (over the phone or in person), Troubleshooting (over the phone or in person), as well as any computer repairs that does not require that your or computer be taken apart or that the operating system be reinstalled. Guaranteed. Try out the computer questions page. As you can see I left his formatting intact. I dont think its needed to say “he says he will perform...” because that is already implied. Also, I will not try to sell other commercial service unless a computer needs to be taken apart or needs the OS reinstalled. In such a case I would simply offer them a commercial solution, I would not force it down their throat. —RealComputers

2009-07-28 09:11:33 Any listing by you under the free section is unacceptable to me, considering your obvious motivations for putting it there. If you discontinued your commercial repair business and did free repairs out of the kindness of your heart, that would be a different story. If every commercial repair operation tried to do what you're doing, the page would be overly cluttered. Feel free, however, to list all the free things you do on the page for your business and perhaps a summary of these things on the Computer repair page. —WilliamLewis

I am not Real Computers. I am a seperate entity. What is obvious is that you are offended by what you think are my motivations and not by whats is actually listed. If every commercial opperation offered the free services that I, meaning me as in Brian Tangney and not Real computers which is not a free service business, offer then there would not be a free services section on the page at all. However the listing was not a business listing. It was a .. call me if you have no money and wat to get your computer repaird anyway .. listing. repairs that dont require me to take a computer apart nor reinstall an OS are very quick and easy for me, even if they are not for others. There would be no need to charge.

2009-07-28 09:14:21 I am willing to compromise and let you write a listing but apparently you are not. My motivation should not be a factor, only the validity of what people will be exposed to and able to make good use out of on the wiki. —RealComputers

2009-07-28 09:25:04 I will not compromise on allowing you to misrepresent what you are offering. Ethics require this. You are welcome, however, to list the free services you offer under your business' listing, where readers can put your services in context and recognize that such things are promotional. —WilliamLewis

2009-07-28 09:27:56 nothing is misrepresended. Everything that was listed was 100% true. You are only doing this because you think my motivation is wrong, even though my motivation does not come through at all. —RealComputers

But you see, that's where you and at least part of the wiki community disagree. I agree with Lewis et al that unless you are offering free *repairs*, it doesn't belong in the free section. Why can't you get with the program and find a clue? This is *not* your website and you do not have absolute control of it. Don't you realize that your behavior is doing your business more harm than good? —JimStewart

I AM OFFERING FREE REPAIRS.

Then say that on your website. You say you are offering free diagnostics and repairs for a fee. Is that correct or not? —jimstewart

I am seperate from Real Computers and I am intending to remain that way in relation to these free services.

2009-07-28 09:36:35 What is wrong with just listing what your doing in your business' listing? Your objection, that people without money won't read your entry, doesn't work. —WilliamLewis

Your argument that my motivation need be a factor in this doesnt work.

2009-07-28 09:38:05 Lewis do you have an opinion on the compromise I suggested on your page? —RealComputers

2009-07-28 10:32:22 Your proposed "compromise" merely privledges your business above all others listed on the page. You have your listing under "commercial repair services," which is all that is necessary. Your business isn't sufficiently different to require a new category. Your business looks like a commercial operation. It smells like a commercial operation. It quacks like a commercial operation. It is a commercial operation, end of story.

Furthermore, your motivations are important here, despite any claims to the contrary. They speak to the true nature of what you're offering. Your edit history clearly shows that at one point, you intended to use your "free" services as a way to sell your commercial services. I am not convinced that you will not use your "free" services in the future to sell your commercial services, regardless of your claims to the contrary. If you want to be listed under any heading other than commercial, close real computers and offer free computer repair with no upsell out of the kindness of your heart. Otherwise, stay in the commercial services section —WilliamLewis

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2009-07-28 11:00:45 Interesting debate strategy. "If I can't win, blow away all the comments". Sigh. —JimStewart

2009-07-28 11:04:48 Its people like you that keep arguments alive. —RealComputers

People are trying to amicably end the disagreement, and communicating openly is difficult the way you have been deleting the discussion. That's contributing to the discussion spinning out longer than it would last otherwise. —gnome Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards

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2009-07-28 11:14:38 I hope you know I still do not have anything special involved in any of this; I am now, as always, just trying to help people resolve an argument in a way that makes the most people happy. BTW, I think honestly that the more you delete comments, the more inviting it is for people to try to leave one. Usually what's most helpful about comments is that I can go read the last 10 or 15, and see what compromise you and WilliamLewis were talking about. Cause maybe one of them was a good one, and I can say "hey, that thing five posts up, let's try that one. But when the page is empty, no one has any idea what the heck anyone is talking about, and it forces people to spend time hitting "info" and checking updates one by one, which just makes it more confusing - because the new comments sometimes don't make sense without the context (and overall makes it last longer :/) —EdWins

2009-07-28 11:31:59 You seem to be confused. I'm sure JabberWokky will restore the free section with the unrelated links as soon as he sees the message on his page. Also, you and I don't have to come to a compromise for the page to be unlocked. Rather, the community (which includes more than just me and you) will need to come to a consensus.

I speak for myself, but I'd wager most reasonable people would consider what you're doing to be shady. Your edit history clearly shows that at one point, you intended to use your "free" services as a way to sell your commercial services. Even if you now will provide "free" repair for software issues and free diagnostics for hardware issues, if a hardware issue comes up, what's going to happen? You're going to recommend that they purchase your commercial services. You cannot create a separation between yourself and your "free" services that make your "free" services anything but commercial. Claims to the contrary simply smell wrong and cannot be seriously entertained.

You speak of how a compromise is a must. I'm not convinced. I'm an engineer, a professional with a strict code of ethics to uphold. Canon 6 says that I must avoid deceptive acts. Listing you under "free computer repair & support" is fundamentally deceptive in light of what you're offering, even with disclaimers up the whazoo. It makes a representation of what you offer that is simply not honest. I will not compromise on my ethics. You are not offering free, no strings attached services without a pecuniary interest. Thus, you should not be listed under "free computer repair & support." If the community decides that I'm wrong, so be it. However, I don't think I'll ever agree that listing you under "free computer repair & support" is not a deceptive act.

Be honest. List the free services you perform with the Real Computers listing under "Computer Repair." That way, people looking to use your "free" services will understand that you run a computer repair operation and there is the possibility of an upsell. That is the only ethical, non-deceptive solution to this dispute, aside from removing your listing altogether. —WilliamLewis

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Real Computers added the ["PC vs mac"] page

2009-07-29 00:31:55 That page is going to be deleted the same way that the abortion debate page was. See http://daviswiki.org/Abortion/Debate?action=recall&version=170 and http://daviswiki.org/Abortion/Debate/Talk?action=recall&version=7 for reference. That page can't add anything positive to the wiki, isn't about Davis and has be hash and rehashed to death on the internet. —JasonAller

2009-07-29 00:33:15 wow .. its PC vs mac .. its not a debate over religious beliefs in regard to human life .. let someone else decide. —RealComputers

2009-07-29 00:34:56 I seriously cant believe you compared PC vs macs to the abortion debate .. the only thing they have in common is that they are debatable. —RealComputers

2009-07-29 00:37:03 Both are "religious" debates that have never reached resolution. —JasonAller

2009-07-29 00:39:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC —JasonAller

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2009-07-29 13:30:15 Philip Neustrom —EdWins

2009-07-29 13:32:19 well i guess hes an admin. dont understand though. The page is fine, its not pointless but not particularly important. There are so many pages on wiki that are not important at all and are way more pointless. I really wanted to know more about why people use macs or otherwise but the wiki is shuting it down i guess. —RealComputers

2009-07-29 13:43:20 Go join the daviswiki irc channel if you want to chat. —TusharRawat

2009-07-29 13:47:16 and stop being a nuisance on the wiki. It's not a playground, it's a valuable resource that many people have put time and energy into building and maintaining. —TusharRawat

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2009-07-29 14:51:12 The "waiting for an admin" game isn't productive. The point of the wiki is collaborative editing, that means working it out. There are guidelines that have been worked out, and continue to be worked on, around here. But one of those ideas is that the admins try to not step in. Besides you've ignored board members, gnomes, and other editors... —JasonAller

Edit 300

2009-07-29 15:12:47 Now your baby's a sub-page of you, so you can get righteously indignant if someone deletes it, rather than just butting heads for the sake of butting heads. —BrettHall

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2009-07-29 15:20:28 You get to pick which wikis you participate in, you don't get to pick your fellow editors, but you owe them a measure of respect and some decorum when interacting with them. —JasonAller

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2009-07-29 16:48:46 Quantities of RAM are usually measured in gigabytes, not gigabits. One byte is eight bits. Assuming we're using the definition of giga = 2³⁰ (which is the standard when speaking of memory), your statement in your powerpoint presentation states that most modern computers have 256 MB to 512 MB of RAM. —WilliamLewis

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2009-07-29 16:57:11 "Click here to find out Upload new file "How to build a computer and why it saves money.ppt". That's grammatically strange... —IDoNotExist

maybe but i think its still clear.

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2009-07-30 01:10:15 you can simply make a link to the page, like type it in in the address bar. ex:joepomidor/example_page —JoePomidor

2009-07-30 01:11:06 ok —RealComputers

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2009-07-30 01:27:33 Real: As I said...virtually everything you said on there is simply factually incorrect. It will not prevent you from getting a virus. In fact, browser based exploits are generally not viruses at all. Nor is something necessarily an attack just because it creates a pop-up. Nor is it likely that if you did have a virus executing on your system that unplugging it would actually remove the virus, as it would likely have actually infected something on your system. It does appear to be correct, however, that you are a computer technician. —IDoNotExist

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2009-07-30 01:37:56 Real: I don't know if there is any value in responding to your comment on my page, since you've deleted all the previous responses I've given you. But you do need to go read up on these things. Your advice is just plain wrong. Really. It's as if you told someone that they could avoid dying in a car crash by eating a tasty dinner of blue cheese and well cooked goat. Yes, I know you'll delete this comment too, because you don't agree with it. That doesn't mean that it's wrong. —IDoNotExist

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2009-07-30 01:41:55 I think that I should warn you that aside from spammers and users impersonating other people, only two people have been banned in the history of the wiki. Both had a penchant for creating pointless vanity pages. The most recently banned user was just like you in insisting that certain pages be exactly like he wanted in order to promote his interests. I'm not saying you're going to be banned at this point. You're new and you're being given a lot of slack. The people who were banned had to behave badly for a long period of time, and even then it took a lot of effort to build the consensus to get them banned. I am saying, however, that if you keep this up, people will think the wiki would be more useful without you here. You have the disadvantage of not having any political allies (the last dude was a politico) that can defend you. You also have the disadvantage of having alienated others who would likely defend you. —WilliamLewis

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2009-07-30 01:57:46 Your advice here is more frequently wrong than it is correct. It's also massively off-topic. —WilliamLewis

2009-07-30 10:13:42 Wow, a lot of stuff happened the last day. I'll try to jump in and mediate if you'll give me a min to read this. I'm trying to help fix or defuse some tension here. The problem people are having isn't whether you're giving free advice - it's the medium used. The gripe is you are using the wiki as a tool, for things that aren't overtly Davis related. This sort of stuff belongs on an external website, it's not really in the Davis Wiki scope. A lot of businesses could make subpages for what they consider important problems. I'll try to give you an example of the exact same thing.

Gardeners could put up pages on how to protect your flowers from slugs.
Gyms could put up weight loss diets and fitness advice (this is probably a huge issue too).
Music shops could make a page on how to tune your own guitar.
Pest control could put up a "how to avoid getting an ant problem" page.
etc, etc. Every business could likely put up some informational page that is important to a group of the Davis population.

This is all *useful* free advice; and to different segments and groups of course, it's very very useful. But I hope you see your page ideas about computers are the exact same thing. Sure, it's useful and indeed free. But the real problem is, if more people do this, they drown out the point of the Davis Wiki. It's not something about the community really, and it's not that overly specific. I can't stress again, overall it's not about you, it's about use of the wiki. Davis Wiki is not the right place to host those sorts of pages. It's just the wrong medium; all of that stuff is better suited for external sites (and links to it from here).

I hope this explanation made sense in a non-confrontational, non-personal way. Again, I've always tried to communicate in that way and try to bridge the gap.

—EdWins

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2009-07-30 10:31:20 Relax. It will be cleaned up when everything has been calm for a few days. No worries, no hurry. The wiki will be here years from now, and having one entry locked for a few days gives people time to calm down. —JabberWokky

OK, thats fair and reasonable, but I wish you had just said that when I asked the first time.

2009-07-30 10:33:12 I'm not ignoring you. This is not a real time forum, and I don't always have anything to say (nor am I in front of my computer all the time). —JabberWokky

That was like two days ago.

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2009-08-03 12:03:30 Done. —JabberWokky

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2009-08-03 15:39:14 The keyboard question and your answer were a useful part of that page. —JasonAller

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Edit 350

2009-08-06 13:24:54 You know, Jim is allowed to edit William's edit. He probably doesn't care who wrote it, he just thinks it sounds too much like advertising, so he removed it. People edit each other's writings all the time — that's how the wiki works. Four months from now, somebody else might come along, have a different perspective and edit it again. There's no such thing as a "final version". Also, I don't know why you involved me in this — it's between you and Jim. Actually, strike that, it's between anybody who is interested in the wording, so, you, William and Jim. —gnome Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards

2009-08-06 13:27:29 Also you write, "I think its not appropriate for anyone to leave comments that have nothing to do with the services performed by a business on a business page". Meanwhile, JasonAller thinks that it's not appropriate for you to be editing under the name of your business. Everybody has different perspectives. —JabberWokky

2009-08-06 13:35:44 Yes, it was the result of an edit war. But the edit war does not resolve anything; tomorrow somebody else might have a different perspective. A better approach might be to work with other editors rather than trying to say that you "own" parts of the wiki. The entire community owns it, including the Real Computers entries. As for using your real name, it's entirely up to you what you want to go by, but if you'd like, people can help show you how to remove your current account so you can signup again under your real name (you can only signup once per email address). As for the appropriateness of personal comments on an entry devoted to a particular subject (like a business), no, I personally don't think it's appropriate, but I think I've accidentally replied on the business listing rather than your personal entry just because the names are so similar. —JabberWokky

2009-08-06 13:37:11 ...although now, having read the comment Jim made, it seems to be about the owner of the business (i.e., you) and isn't completely off-subject. —JabberWokky

2009-08-06 13:50:31 Please don't invoke my name in any content dispute. Joe has an equal right to edit as much as you or I do. Again, it's as much his entry as it is yours. —JabberWokky

2009-08-06 13:51:51 It's not up to me. I'm pretty iffy on it myself, I just said it wasn't completely off-subject. Personally I don't care if it stays or goes. —JabberWokky

2009-08-06 13:56:40 I just read through the conversation you and JW had, and i don't see any sign of agreement between you and him on that subject. However, I'm going to leave it alone for now. If JimStewart or someone else sees fit to return that comment to the page, I will probably then act to back them up on it. Given that you and the business consist of the same thing, I would say that personal comments regarding how you choose to spend your time are apropos. If I knew that a car mechanic was charging me by the hour, but also played WoW and would therefore sometimes be on his computer instead of working on my car, I would probably try to find another mechanic. —JoePomidor

2009-08-06 13:58:56 This is just a simple disagreement with you and some other editors about the content on an entry. You're free to ask me and I'll help you out... I have lots of experience with this kind of stuff (as do several other editors here). Work with the other editors, listen to their point of view. They are making their edits for a reason, and it makes sense to them. You might simply ask Jim politely to take down the comment as you're worried it will hurt business. Pretty much every other editor manages to get along pretty well. —JabberWokky

2009-08-06 14:01:23 One important thing you really need to internalize is that Jim and Joe have just as much right to edit the Real Computers entry as you do. In fact, so does everybody here: it is edited by the community. —JabberWokky

2009-08-06 14:30:50 here —CovertProfessor

2009-08-06 14:33:25 and here —CovertProfessor

You sure put a lot of effort into a pointless argument. I said "my business page" because it is my business. Sorry I forgot the 's. Also, I can refer to this page as my wiki page because it is my use page.
Well, you called it your page (the page in question was *not* your user page). And you act like you think it's your page. I put effort in because you have been wasting a lot of people's time — people who really care about the wiki — because all you seem to care about is promoting your business over other businesses. I keep trying, as many people have tried, to clarify what this wiki is about. We keep hoping that you'll get it. —CovertProfessor
Is this fun for you?

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2009-08-06 15:02:51 No, it is not fun for me, and I have better things to do, as do others. People put do "have" to put the effort in, otherwise people like you would ruin the wiki. They are not about to let that happen.

But again, you can change your ways, and make things easier for yourself and for others. —CovertProfessor

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2009-08-06 15:17:11 You have never acted appropriately on this wiki, not even today. You seem to expect that we're just some social media site that you can use for your own ends, not a community that has it's own ideas about being abused. Try creating a new account on the wiki using your real name. Stop editing pages that have to do with your business except to reply to comments. The wiki's page for your business sucks and I really don't feel like getting into an edit war to fix it. Others won't even consider the idea. It won't be the end of the world if others edit your pages. Stand back and let them. —WilliamLewis

2009-08-06 15:18:35 I relize that some of you really want to jump on me anytime I make the slighest mistake, but I'm not trying to offend anyone here. Please keep that in mind and do not do or say things that are argumentative. I am very open to productive dialogue, or even just dialogue, so long as its not negative. I do not wish to carry on debate over trivial matters. I am not perfect, in fact I'm a huge nerd which is why I'm so good at computers. I really do want to get along with all of you, even if you may feel that I dont. I truely hope at some point you will all come to understand this. —RealComputers

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2009-08-06 15:38:10 Oh and another thing, STOP DELETING COMMENTS FROM YOUR PAGE. A periodic comment flush is fine, but what you're doing is plain antisocial and annoys the hell out of all who interact with you on this wiki. —WilliamLewis

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2009-08-06 15:55:56 Well, it doesn't have much humanity to it... little in the way of personal opinion and whimsy, not much as to why it is an interesting part of the community of Davis. It's pretty much just a business listing, and the wiki is not really a business listings site, but rather a work to capture the community of Davis. APEX Cycles & Service has a photo of his kid in a karate uniform. Armadillo Music has photos, history and tips by the community on getting deals and gag gifts. The Meat Lab has suggestions on what is tasty, while the Varsity Theater has the bulk of the content be about the history of the building and how it has changed over the years. The Real Computers entry just says how you fix computers. —JabberWokky

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2009-08-06 15:58:04 Why did you start RC? What was your first computer? What was the business like in Pleasanton? Why did you move to Davis? Where's the passion, the history, the character... the connection to the community and the details that make it more than a simple yellow page entry? —JabberWokky

2009-08-06 15:59:37 I see your point. I dont know what I can add to make it more a part of Davis. I mean its in Davis and its has reviews from people who live in Davis but there is not much else about Davis in it. There ae lots of business listing that dont say much or anything about Davis, they are just in Davis. I will give that some thought though and try to come up with ways to make it more a part of Davis. —RealComputers

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Why did you start RC? What was your first computer? What was the business like in Pleasanton? Why did you move to Davis? Where's the passion, the history, the character... the connection to the community and the details that make it more than a simple yellow page entry? —JabberWokky

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I will remove comments from this page if I want to. This is my user page, and I have been told that its fine to remove comments from your own user page.

2009-08-06 16:08:34 A good way to think about the wiki is as a sort of average of community opinion. It's not any one person's opinion in particular. But it only has value if everyone can contribute. Let's say I were someone in Davis looking for a computer repair service. I might go to the Davis Wiki and check out all of the postings on the various services. Some will be positive. Some will be negative. Just because there are some negative comments doesn't mean that I wouldn't use the service, and just because there are some positive ones doesn't mean that I would. But by deleting other people's comments or deleting only the negative ones, you seriously damage your reputation on the wiki. What is posted is then not an average of people's opinions, but only your opinion, which is predictably rather positive towards yourself. But people aren't interested in the business' opinion of itself. They are interested in what customers of that business thought. If business owners go through and censor the comments about their businesses, the wiki becomes nothing more than advertising, and not a place to go to really learn about a business. (How can anyone trust comments if they might be censored?) In other words, censorship of comments reduces the value of the wiki for everyone who uses it. —IDoNotExist

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2009-08-06 16:10:11 I left the comment "The owner appears to spend far more time engaging in daviswiki arguments and revert wars than he does fixing computers." on the realcomputer page and you deleted it. You told jabber that it was an insult and a personal attack. It was neither. And you didn't bother to say that to me. It was an opinioned observation, nothing more and nothing less. Perhaps you could tell us how many hours you spent refreshing and posting on daviswiki today and how many hours you spent fixing computers. Not that it matters a great deal. The crux of the matter is that I would *never* use your services, regardless of how competent you repair computers. And the reason is that I expect social interactions to have a degree of give and take, especially a collaborative forum such as daviswiki. What I've seen here leads me to believe that you are pretty much incapable of that. So when a person comes to daviswiki and looks for a computer repair company they deserve to know all the available information about that company. For example, a restaurant might have excellent food, but rude servers. The rude servers need to be mentioned even if the food is excellent. Running a business is a package deal. Davis is a small town and you've already dug yourself quite a hole. I suggest you back away from daviswiki and leave it alone for awhile. —JimStewart

2009-08-06 16:20:48 Jim is right. As a business owner, you need to understand that your reputation among your customers is extremely important, and so is your reputation with people who might influence your customers. Most of the wiki editors are very technically savvy. Quite a number of them are regularly asked by others where to go for tech stuff, such as the services you provide. If you alienate one person, they will tell 10 of their friends, and they will tell 10 of their friends, and pretty soon, you'll have a really bad reputation in Davis. If you make one person like your business, the same thing will happen, but with positive results for you. You've alienated pretty much everyone who has interacted with you on the wiki, and you are continuing to do so. I can't imagine that this will be positive for your business... You really should rethink how you interact with people on the wiki. Otherwise, you are just hurting your own business in the process. —IDoNotExist

2009-08-06 16:35:54 You may notice that I just archived some old Reviews from the Elizabeth's Pet Sitting page. She is an example of someone who came to the wiki and made some edits that she shouldn't have, edits that reflected very badly on her as a businessperson. But she listened to the advice she got, and subsequently made many productive edits to the many areas of wiki (restaurants, other dog-related pages, etc.). I was happy to archive those old edits so that the past could be better put behind her (though the past is never truly erased around here). Now she has a page that reflects quite positively on her as a businessperson, and while I have never used her services, I would now feel more trusting of her than I would have given her previous wiki behavior.

In short, wiki behavior reflects on personal behavior which reflects on business behavior — both positively and negatively. It is not too late for you to start making a positive impression. And no, today you did not make a positive impression. —CovertProfessor

I really dont think its fair to judge me personally by this wiki behavoir. I am a very nice person whom none of you have ever met. —RealComputers
Why isn't it fair? A nice person acts nice everywhere, not just face-to-face. We would all love for you to act nicely here on the wiki. —CovertProfessor
- I do not think I am rude as much as maybe confused about the wiki. I think often my confusion is misinterpreted and becomes an edit war or something, which is at least partly my fault and I regret that. I simply think that when someone wants to change something that relates to my business, thats fine but often times people will just delete something instead of making it more appropriate. That is something I have not responded to in the past but I see now that when something gets deleted like that, its because there something wrong with it and I can then go in and try to change it so that it still fits my perception of whats ok as well as the perceptions of those who thought there was a problem. For example, today, Jim deleted a huge chuck of the description for RC and i reverted it, but then I took a good look at it and figured he was right about it needed to be fixed so I made it shorter and better. If that had happened without all the drama inbetween then that would have been perfect.
  - Well, here are some suggestions that might help: Make edits on other pages (and not just "I liked this restaurant" or "I didn't like it" — but real contributions). If you see an edit you don't like, your first response should be to contact the person, not just revert it. (So yes, contacting Jim first would have been the better approach). And don't be so quick to delete comments off of your personal page. Yes, the wiki has had a practice of allowing people to control their personal pages, but it's hard to have a discussion with you if comments are constantly deleted. Leave them for awhile, and then delete them if you wish. Finally, and most importantly, realize that this is a collaborative effort that requires us all to do our best to get along. —CovertProfessor
An excellent example. Elizabeth showed herself to be a classy lady and she gets my dog sitting business. —jimstewart

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2009-08-06 16:36:09 After you removed most of the description to the real computers listing, I undid it but eventually figured you were right and edited the listing to make it "less ad like" as you had stated. Whats disagreeable about that? My only problem is having non-related comments on the business page because it obvious has a negative effect but has nothing to do with the issue. It would be like leaving a comment on the mountain mikes page saying the owner spends a lot of time editing wikis. It has nothing to do with the service mountain mikes provides at all. —RealComputers

Yes it does. —jimstewart

2009-08-06 16:49:38 Well I really dont see how but whatever. I think we have solved this issue, you were ultimately right about the listing needing to be changed and it has been. Do you think the listing as it is now is alright? —RealComputers

2009-08-06 16:51:22 Real: I'd have to agree with you that how you spend spend your time is your business, and unless you are charging people for that time (like charging by the hour, for example), it's not relevant. But the reason for Jim's posting wasn't to complain about how you spend your time. It's that the impression that you give everyone is that you are not interacting with the community in a way that would make people want to use your service. If someone takes their computer to you for repair, they are putting a certain degree of trust in you that you won't damage it or lose their data, that you will repair it properly, AND that they will have a good experience interacting with you. You should check out the wiki page on Comcast. They have a TERRIBLE customer service reputation, and survive only because many people have no alternative but to use their service if they want non-broadcast TV. But if you read those reviews, you will get a good sense about just how much people hate interacting with them. You have the same problem. People either will or won't like your service in part based on how they feel about interacting with you (customer service). —IDoNotExist

2009-08-06 16:55:55 You have a good point Idonotexist, however I dont think Jim or anyone else who has never met me or talk to me on the phone or asked about a service really is informed enough about me to make that judgement. The comments from the people whom have actually left comments on the RC page are nice, and state that I am a nice person to interact with. I really regret that I have dug myself into a hole on this wiki. I admit I really just dont understand what exactly the wiki is supposed to be used for a lot of the time. I thought the PC vs Mac page was a cool idea at the time because it just seemed like a fun discussion page, but I now see how it really has nothing to do with the wiki and really didnt belong. I am catching on, slowly perhaps, but please just be patient and dont take an argumentative route in the future. —RealComputers

2009-08-06 17:07:17 Real: your interactions extend beyond what people see in person or on the phone. You are interacting with the wiki. We see you based on how you interact on here. If you interact in person as you have on here, you most likely put earplugs into your ears when someone says something you don't like, then you tell them to be quiet and put on a CD of things people said about you previously that you did like. Or maybe you are totally different in person and we just don't see that because that's now how you interact with us. But we can only go by what we see based on what you do on here, and you definitely have not made a good impression with anyone. —IDoNotExist

2009-08-06 17:11:00 Well look, I understand your point. Give me a second chance and I will do my best to behave in a socialable and positive way that doesnt offend anyone. —RealComputers

I am happy to do so. —CovertProfessor

2009-08-06 17:22:09 I am greatful —RealComputers

2009-08-07 06:20:17 Another thing to consider is reading how some of the other businesses handle negative reviews and comments about their business on the wiki. Take a look at Mishka's Cafe for a long list of both positive and negative reviews that don't have too many answers 'officially' but have a lot of answers from the person that worked there. All the reviews are present, and the conversations are sometimes handled well and sometimes not. Then take a look at B&L Bike Shop which also has a lot of both positive and negative reviews. In this case, however, note how each negative review has been carefully and very professionally responded to telling their side of the story. The bike shop's wording is frequently direct, but not rude. I give them credit for handling their issues directly without trying to get into a flame war (or edit war; they never remove someone else's comments) and because of it, I tend to have a slightly better opinion of their shop than I would have if I had only read the negative reviews or if they had had huge comment/edit fights on their page. —WesHardaker

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2009-09-16 04:03:14 It is not your entry to control, and if everybody here were to start editing with their honest opinion of how you've acted, and start openly questioning things like your technical capabilities and your business license, it would get very ugly very quickly. As it is, I was supporting your assertion that you did not appear to operate a business in Orangevale... however to be complete perhaps I should mention the lack of a filed dba or business license with the business here in Davis? Are you charging and filing proper sales tax? Some people have looked and not been able to find any record of it. Personally, I don't care that much, and was only replying to somebody's accusation. Please give the respect of not deleting the contents of that reply. —Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards, (814) 889.8845

Yes, that is exactly what I did. I moved the important part of the comments to the history section. As for my technical skills, well you can ask me about them all you want. I am very good at what I do. I am going to be getting a business license some time in the near future. I mearly started advertising before hand so I ccould figure out if it was really worth it to try to make a business out of this or not, and I have concluded that it is. I plan on opening an office downtown in the somewhat near future.

2009-09-17 12:02:57 Nice job integrating the comment by adding the important info to the "History" part of the page. —EdWins

Thanks, seemed quite appropriate to me aswell.

2009-09-17 12:18:34 You mean remove the comment that supports you? —JabberWokky

i do not see the need for there to be a debate over if I ever worked or owned any other computer stores on the page, especially since I can quickly and easily answer that. You and the other guy that left the comment origionally pointed out info that was unclear and I am happy for that, that is why its now integrated.

2009-09-17 12:47:46 I'm not debating, and I'm confused why you're even talking specifically to me about it. I merely wanted it left there long enough for the original person to have a chance to reply. When something is added to the wiki, it is no longer just mine to remove: it is part of the community property, just like anything you (or anyone else) contributes to the wiki. Wes restored it last, and he likely has a reason different from mine. —JabberWokky

I'm not trying to aim anything at you, I know you were helping and I appriciate it.

This isn't a standard case. The comment was added onto the wrong page, and a user deleted it rather than move it. There was a gap of two days before I came and put it on the proper page, so whether the guy ever came back to see it, no idea. In general though, it is true indeed that some sort of 'courtesy delay' is in effect before things are deleted/integrated. -ES

2009-09-17 17:29:01 My reasons are similar. It was unfair to remove someone else's comment until the thread is fully vetted. It would be much better to leave it and ask the original poster for clarification of his issue so the discussion could be fulfilled. At best, removing it as quickly as possible by the owner of the business appears biased and is akin to censorship at worst. I have no issues with it being removed after the community at large has agreed to it, ideally with voice from the original poster. It's sort of akin to how just because how people realize that multiple comments come from the same IP address and are quite possibly the same person, we don't jump to the point of removing the comments. In stead, we warn and make the readers aware of the issue. Just like we did for the comment in question on your business page. It was pretty clear to me, as a reader, than the original poster was likely wrong based on multiple other people's follow-ups. I'd prefer, however, to see it fully resolved before the discussion is deleted. Especially when it's the business owner himself deleting the material. —WesHardaker

Yea i guess i coulda asked the person who left the comment but I figured when he saw that i never worked in orangvale or anywhere like that he would not mind.

How would he see that after you deleted your reply? -jw
- Remember - the guys comment was instantly reverted away. There was a two day gap before I brought it back to the proper page. In this particular case, I think it was fine. Brian's original response of deletion was talked about, and he did a good job replying to it. But look, he put it to the history on Sept 17th. I put the comment on the page on the 13th, but the comment was originally left on the 11th. While I agree with Wes above in most cases, I think again, this is a special one. Seemed like a pretty quick one-shot. I mean, the guy didn't come back and say "hey where'd my comment go" in the two days it was missing from the page he left it on. -ES

Well, that'd be nice in theory. But there are other possibilities. If I was a jury, I wouldn't believe either of you yet without more evidence. His claim appears damaged because he has no evidence, but he could be thinking of a store or service with a different name that had some huge problem that you're trying to dodge. Or it could be that there really was another store, with a different name with a huge problem but the owner names are coincidentally named ("Brian"). Who knows. With you trying to hide the discussion ASAP, it actually looks suspicious! —WesHardaker

Well i think i makes perfect sense that I want to "dodge" the bad reputation of an entierly different company with a similar name.

2009-09-18 19:00:09 Yes, as usual, you are thinking about what is best for you and not at all thinking about what is best for the wiki. —CovertProfessor

Well, except when you dodge it in the way you are I begin to believe the accusations because of the way you're trying to hide it.

So then its best for the wiki to be exposed to misinformation?

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2009-09-22 18:11:17 You remove a lot —JasonAller Thats cause im awesome

2009-09-25 08:53:11 What part of "start a talk page first" don't you understand? But no, as usual, you act alone and in order to do what you think is best for YOUR interests without discussing it with anyone else. I have tried to give you a second, third, fourth, Xth chance to be a genuine wiki collaborator. But you can't seem to manage it. And I am getting really tired of it. —CovertProfessor

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2009-09-29 06:30:36 This is my favorite page when it comes to looking through past history. —WesHardaker

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2009-09-29 14:56:31 I agree with WH —JoePomidor

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2009-10-15 14:08:14 I agree with Joe. —JabberWokky

2009-10-15 14:15:55 I had to look through past history to understand what JW was agreeing with... —IDoNotExist

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2009-10-15 15:06:39 I have no idea what JW is agreeing with. —MasonMurray

2009-10-15 17:09:05 He's agreeing with Joe. I think Joe was saying how much he enjoyed reading the history of this page, in response to the deletion of the comments of the CovertProfessor. The CovertProfessor was expressing frustration with things getting deleted from pages by RealComputers. RealComputers was deleting things that he didn't like (as I suspect this will be in the next few minutes. Read it in the version history, as I fear it will vanish from everywhere else. —IDoNotExist

2009-10-16 07:00:53 Actually, Joe was saying he agreed with me (and it was I that said I always enjoy reading the history of this page). When this message is deleted, I look forward to who will be agreeing with JW. —WesHardaker

2009-10-16 12:18:13 Ummm...I agree with someone, or I would, if I could figure out who was saying what in agreement with whom. If only there were some sort of moderately permanent visual record that would allow me to easily follow the whole conversation without going through the edit history. If only... if only... Wait! This isn't Oz! Aunty Em! Aunty Em! —IDoNotExist

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2009-10-20 07:59:11 IDNotExist: you don't actually have to go through the whole history to view what happens here. Just go to the history and compare the differences between the authors edits (which are frequently deletions) and the last entry before his next. Thus, you'll see the huge swaths of conversations in big chunks. —WesHardaker

2009-10-20 08:31:46 Yeah, but then you have to guess where different parts of it began and ended... —IDoNotExist

2009-10-20 09:39:17 give it a rest guys. —EdWins

2009-10-26 17:32:34 Wise choice. You would not want to have seen the disclaimer I would have added if you had insisted on keeping my words on the Real Computers page. —CovertProfessor

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2009-10-27 13:30:32 Making threats is not acceptable behaviour here on this community wiki. Please appologize to CovertProfessor. —JasonAller I only asked him to leave me alone. It was not a threat. - RC

2009-10-27 15:52:40 When I read it there were two things that I reacted to. I may have read something into your tone that you didn't intend. The second issue though is clear: it isn't your place to tell CovertProfessor that they can't edit pages that you have edited. —JasonAller

2009-10-27 15:54:35 To be fair I think that what keepingitlegal did was very inappropriate. —JasonAller My comment was not a threat. I would just rather not have contact with covertprofessor at all because it is almost always negative. Not a threat, just how it is. Doesnt matter now, I have a license.

2009-10-27 16:06:23 We don't get to pick our fellow editors. The trick is to learn ways of having successful interactions with them. —JasonAller Short of that I think its better to avoid communication if such communications are going to be negative.

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2009-10-27 16:50:09 You wrote, "It would be best if you stayed out of all future instances that have anything to do with me at all." I couldn't agree more. But it was you who involved me in your business, not the other way around. And I will continue to be involved in the wiki, which depending on your actions, may involve you. Too bad. —CovertProfessor

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2009-10-28 11:41:45 Is there anyone who you are ok with editing pages regarding you? —WilliamLewis

2009-10-28 11:55:08 Mainly I am not ok with the people who make up the group of wiki opposition that I needlessly face making edits to the Real Computers page, but dont care much about the others. I would perfer that no one edit the Real Computers page unless: they were a customer leaving comments, they are correcting some kind of error or formatting. At this point the Real Computers page will not change as time go by, it should just be left as it is and nothing should ever be added except comments from customers. If you have never been one of my customers then you should not leave reviews of my services on the page. —RealComputers

2009-10-28 11:55:52 You were putting words in my mouth by posting your unsigned comment before my signed comment. After your comment, the first signature that occurred was mine, attributing what you wrote to me. I know it was likely an innocent mistake. —WilliamLewis

2009-10-28 11:56:30 I see what u mean but i think it was obvious that they were not your words. —RealComputers

2009-10-28 12:57:02 You wrote on my page, "please drop it." We've had a number of exchanges — I'm not sure what it is that you want me to drop. —CovertProfessor

2009-10-28 12:57:53 Please read the following:

After reading these links, you should reasonably know that nothing that is being done here is illegal. Please drop the insinuation of legal threats. —WilliamLewis

2009-10-28 12:59:43 Its not a threat. Many of the things that have been said and done here qualify according to that info. —RealComputers

How, in particular, is the cyberbulling statute that you've trotted out applicable? As for civil harassment, I have had someone threaten to find me and fight me and I still couldn't do anything about it other than get a restraining order against them. —WilliamLewis

2009-10-28 13:04:06 The fact is that there are people hre dilibrately trying to discreadit me and my business by stating malicious and untrue statments. I promise you that If I had to, I could find laws that crimialize this type of thing, especially since a business is invloved. I dont want to debate it anyway, I just want this to stop. What is the point in debating this? Can we just see that there is a need for us to stop arguing and .. stop? —RealComputers

Please retract all your insinuations of legal action and you can end this right now. Continue and there are tons of people who will be itching to ban you for it. —wl

2009-10-28 13:07:28 I still am not sure what you are talking about — my most recent comments were not to you, but about you. I'd happily stop talking to you and about you. When you stop treating the wiki as the place to advertise your business and to denigrate other businesses, you'll never hear from me again. But when I see so many well-intentioned people trying to get you to play along, and you only see them as attacking you, then I am going to chime in and discuss wiki policy. —CovertProfessor

2009-10-28 13:08:27 Im going to ask my lawyer about this and I will get back to you. —RealComputers

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2009-10-28 13:36:32 I'm current surrounded by lawyers and can save you the cost of a call. What has transpired here isn't actionable. You do however have the power to change how you are being treated. —JasonAller

2009-10-28 13:39:28 I'm not going to respond to anymore meaningless comments. I will log on no and then just to check on the Real Computers page but thats all. I will contiune to prevent misinformation from being stated on Real Computers page and that is really all I hope to acomplish. —RealComputers

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2009-10-28 13:54:04 Who decides when a business like Vital Networks shouldn't be listed? There was a good discussion on wiki community/neighboring wiki content, check it out. —JasonAller

If you think it should be listed then fine, list it. I think since they do not operate in Davis, they shouldnt be listed. I went through and removed some listing only if they told me directly that they do not do computer repair, if their number is out of service or if they do not operate in Davis.

If you read my comment on that page you would have gotten insight into my position. Read the first sentence of your reply again with that in mind. I was pointing you in the direction of a resource that could help reduce the conflict you are experiencing. —JasonAller

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2009-10-28 14:23:52 I would keep businesses that are local to Davis, even if they are not in Davis. For example, until they built the Target here, it was really useful to know about the Target in Woodland (and really, it still is). —IDoNotExist Fine with me, just wanted to bring some light to the matter so others can decide.

2009-10-28 14:25:45 The Vital Networks website says they operate in the greater Sacramento area. How does that not include Davis? How about looking at the edit history of that page? You'll see that before they had an office in Sacramento, they were operating out of homes in Davis and doing work in Davis. —WilliamLewis There is a list of the areas they service on their website and Davis in not one of them. Actually just double checked, Davis is listed. Sorry! My mistake.

2009-10-28 14:44:45 Why would you think I don't like you? Any edit I make is intended to improve the wiki. Period. This is not a place to advertise a business, it is a non-profit resource to document Davis. Documenting a business as part of Davis is fine. Using the entry solely to advertise is not. If you wish to advertise, there are other options out there. This is a community effort, not a hosting provider. You keep acting like I'm opposed to you, Brian. I am not... I'm just working on the wiki, which includes the entry about your company, just as it contains information about Little Girl and the color blue. The entry about your company is not a place for you to advertise, nor is it "your" entry. Just like Little Girl and the color blue, it is simply another interesting facet of Davis that is written about by anybody in the community. —JabberWokky

2009-10-28 14:53:17 In case anyone hasn't told you: This isn't a review site. —WilliamLewis

no its not. But one o the things this site does is allow users to regulate businesses by leaving reviews and the Real Computers is a business page. All business pages shouls only have reviews or important info pertaining to the business. Not just random Q and A discussions, that what the talk pages are for. Hence Talk.

2009-10-28 14:54:30 I put the comments on the talk page. Its fits better there. —RealComputers

2009-10-28 14:56:29 Oh, hey, by the way, I didn't remove the bit about price matching... it's right at the end of the rewrite of the first paragraph. I brought all the bits about pricing together so that they were more visible and easier to find. Also, I brought them up above the web design, as they have to do with the repair aspect of the business. Pretty much all the edits I made are designed to make the entry more pleasant and easier to read. Basically, I regrouped the scattered bits so that they formed a more coherent whole. I also removed the gratuitous bolding because that starts to make the entry look commercial in nature. If you are curious as to any particular edit, just ask... as I say, every change I make is designed to improve the wiki, and I'm happy to explain specific edit. —JabberWokky

2009-10-28 14:57:44 alright, i thought u just removed it. my bad. —RealComputers

2009-10-28 14:59:39 Oh, and also, it would be really cool to get a photo of some of your work — maybe a computer you are building on a workbench with tools spread out or something like that. Kind of a "here's the flavor of what this part of Davis is" photo. Since you don't have a storefront, a good photo would be something that captures the essence of what RC&FD in the same way that the photo at the top of Night Time captures Davis at night. —JabberWokky

2009-10-28 15:02:41 I can do that —RealComputers

2009-10-28 15:22:18 Brian, comments on business pages are for general discussion about the business. They're not just about reviews. If you look at many other business sites you'll find many discussions surrounding all sorts of things not just related to reviewing the business. As a random example, see the dialog about Target and how it discusses all sorts of things relating to the store (hours, bike parking, ...) not just how good of a store it is. —WesHardaker

2009-10-28 15:35:18 Can you respect the fact that I am feel like this is opposition from all angles right now and that you are commenting in the middle of touchy times. It would really help me if you could just leave the comments on the talk page. If other users want to have general discussion about the business or service on the page in the futre then i wont move it. —RealComputers

Can you explain why you feel its yours to remove? I believe you've seen many people state explicitly that it's not the case (except on this page)? —WesHardaker

One reason is because there have never been comments left by you directed at me when I was not in the middle of a debate/argument with another wiki user. You only pop in at sesnitive times and it seem like you are trying to harass the issue. You do not approch a neutral situation.

No, not at all but I understand why you misread the intention. I tend to edit many wiki pages when there is activity since I frequently look at wiki pages that have had a lot of activity to see if I can help. Frequently, oddly enough, when pages get edited a lot more help is needed. In this case, whether your business is licensed or registered properly is a statement about the business. Personally, I'm not that concerned by whether the name is registered or not but others might be. It does reflect on the business but I understand why you might wish to hide it. —WesHardaker

2009-10-28 15:47:49 Hey, if you find a business that has gone out of business (or if you know of an old business that used to exist), please add it to Departed Businesses. The wiki documents all aspects of Davis, including businesses that have been gone for decades. For instance, PC Dimensions had gone out of business several years before the wiki was even created, but still documents it. —JabberWokky

2009-10-28 15:54:16 Will do in the future but I was just removing links to places not in davis or places that dont fix computers from the list of computer repair places in davis. I didnt delete the pages or anything. —RealComputers

It's more of a "do they serve the Davis community" thing. It's kind of fuzzy and has gone back and forth over the years, with different editors disagreeing on the criteria, but all respecting each other's views. -jw

2009-10-28 16:12:09 Nice photo! I thumbnailed it, made the description a caption and uploaded the larger image you added to this entry so that when you click on the image, the full size version comes up. —JabberWokky

2009-10-28 16:14:12 I noticed u did that. Thanks, I dont know how to do those kind of things. —RealComputers

No worries. The wiki is written by thousands of people working together, all making tiny edits and improving the whole. -jw

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2009-10-30 10:34:16 Brian, please don't remove those links from other pages. The wiki is supposed to be completely interconnected. All subsets of groups have a "for more places that do X, see this page" type link. I think Jabberwokky tried to explain this the other night. It's supposed to be about free information, it's not a yellow pages listing type of site bud. Don't remove it from all the computer pages because you don't want it on yours - it's supposed to be the standard. If you find a page without it, add it. —EdWins

2009-10-30 10:41:51 I left this comment elsewhere, but there's two types of linkage: in-article linkage, and out of article linkage. In-article are in the main entry and are typically on context of the article. Out of article linkage are supposed to be informative and help with catagorizing. It's a wiki standard on all types of grouped pages. Sometimes people forget to add them, so the right thing to do is to do so. Removing them is incorrect: it's the goal of the wiki to be interlinked and informative. I promise you man, not a single person will agree with you that they count as double-linking and should be removed. There's many examples of pages that have multiple "For more X, see here" disclaimers. —EdWins

2009-10-30 10:44:05 The links u are reering to are stupid in more cases because the pages they are on already have that link back to commputer repair. I know you want to interconnect it, thats great, but we dont need to double up on the same links. Put them only on the pages that doent already have such links. —RealComputers

But it's a different type of linkage. Imagine it this way: one is in context, and one is the overall out of context summary. The summary one goes on the bottom. This is because sometimes people are just skimming and may want more info without reading the entire main entry line by line to find a link. It's an easy to find navigational tool used to help with large categories/groups, as well as help make the wiki more cohesive overall. That's why no one will ever remove those, but only add them. -ES

2009-10-30 10:45:39 As I wrote on the Talk page: Actually, I added those links to many of the computer companies before I added it to yours. JoePomidor just recently added it to the rest. That style of bulleted, italicized text is common across the wiki. See Luci's Salon and all the other beauty salons, for example, or all the Apartments, Dentists or several other categories of entries. Another crosslink tool for subjects that have fewer entries within that topic is an include. The Plumbers entries and Scouting both have that format. Remember that edits to the wiki are made to improve the wiki itself, too. The links are there for people looking for options, and they are very common across the entire wiki and have been since the beginning. Again, I will tell you what many many other people have told you: There is nobody "working against you" (although at this point there are some people who seem to have grown weary of your unilateral editing and presumption that you have special rights to the entry about your business). There are just people trying to improve the wiki as a whole, including the entry about your business. -jw —JabberWokky

JabberWokky replaced the entire page with: Brian, are you willing to work with other editors and let them make change entries — including the one about your business — even if you don't like some of their edits?

2009-10-30 11:15:23 of course —RealComputers

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2009-10-30 11:16:22 Stop removing linkbacks. I mean it. If you want to discuss them and try to reach a consensus that they're a bad idea, you're welcome to start that discussion. As it stands, though, you're removing something that everyone other than yourself thinks belongs on these pages. —WilliamLewis

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2009-10-30 11:20:10 Stop editing Real Computers and Free Diagnostics immediately. —WilliamLewis

2009-10-30 11:20:37 I would suggest that you take a wiki chill pill and walk away from the wiki for awhile. Or read and try to understand what people are trying to communicate to you rather than editing or reverting without understanding what people are saying. Alternately, add to somewhere else in the wiki. What is your favorite sidewalk to walk down? Do you play any sports? Have a favorite place to sit outside and eat lunch? —JabberWokky

2009-10-30 11:23:18 Here are your grammar fixes. That problem doesn't occur in the other revision. Now please stop reverting. —WilliamLewis

2009-10-30 11:23:46 It would be a good idea to stop unilateral reverting of the entry about your business. Many different people are advocating the other version. —JabberWokky

2009-10-30 11:24:24 you cant start a sentence with they and the page is not going to say royaly sucks on it either. —RealComputers

JabberWokky banned him with the following message (10-30-2009): This user has engaged in unilateral editing, and is banned for 24 hours to calm down. Please, walk outside, enjoy the air, clear your head.

Then it was changed to: This user has engaged in unilateral editing, and is banned for a period of time to calm down. Please, walk outside, enjoy the air, clear your head. Take a wiki chill pill... it'll be here later.

Sockpuppets

Bypassing the ban will result in it lasting indefinitely.

JabberWokky restored the page on 12-03-2009

2010-01-06 16:56:44 Sorry about the confusion, I footnoted the reason I didn't call you back (or answer when you called). I was in a long rambling meeting with a bunch of marketing/sales guys and tech guys from two companies trying to hammer out a contract. I thought you were a different Brian whom I know, and just figured I'd call him back later when he got off work. My phone gives the region plus the name, and "California - Brian" made me think a different person was calling. —JabberWokky

I posted this on the other page as well but its all good. I was just confused anyway. But yea u should save me as brian T in ur phone or something incase I ever need more help with the wiki or something.

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2010-01-21 12:23:49 So, just reply and state your position. What's wrong with that? Would you want somebody removing a statement that you made? —JabberWokky

2010-01-21 12:33:10 Well, first, it's not up to me. Second, I don't think the community will accept deleting it. You could float the idea on a Talk page, but I really don't think it'll be a popular idea. Typically it works the way you handled it - respond to the negative review. —JabberWokky

2010-01-21 12:40:00 I would agree i it was just a bad review but its a review let by someone who made some really wrong assumptions. Its not like this is a review that has any accuracy to it. People should be able to leave negative feedback o corse, but not feedback that is basically made up. If that was ok then the wiki would be covered in graffiti. —RealComputers

2010-01-21 12:40:20 You're repeating the same behaviors that you were banned for previously. I'm not interested in getting involved in it. But I recommend thinking about what you are doing. It didn't work for you before, and if you do it again, I would not be surprised if you wind up banned permanently. Some suggestions:

Don't delete comments. Especially other people's. Even if you don't like them. Don't require the attention of other people by starting a discussion about every change or comment that they make or that you want to make. It takes a lot of time from a lot of other people to deal with those. We have other things to do.

—IDoNotExist

2010-01-21 12:49:50 I have no idea what your talking about. I have not deleted anything. Can you not see that I am creating discussion to avoid causing any issues like before? I am asking or advise and opinions. If you have a problem with that then im sorry but im not doing anything wrong at all. —RealComputers

2010-01-21 13:04:21 Hmmm...you're right...I don't see that you have deleted anything. I thought you had. But here is part of the problem. You are asking to delete some comments. I remember those comments being there. Now I can't find them. Why? Because they must have been deleted or reverted out at some point. Effectively, those comments no longer exist. So no one can see them. Therefore, what that woman posted has been lost to everyone. That's one reason why deleting them is bad... —IDoNotExist

2010-01-21 13:36:14 I see that you are trying hard to turn over a new leaf. Now might be a good time to ask PhilipNeustrom to reactivate the BrianTangney account and turn it over to you. Doing so might lessen the pavlovian responses that some editors have to your current account name. —JasonAller

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2010-01-27 15:13:12 Today I heard about a woman that got a blue scree on her computer and so she thre it away and bought a new one. If this happens to you, dont thorw your computer away. Its easily fixable. —RealComputers

2010-01-28 07:48:09 This utterly boggles me. Why would you do that edit after a long, drawn out discussion settled months ago came to the conclusion that it doesn't fit there? Seriously... do you walk around town and just poke people in the eye with a long stick? I don't care about the edit; at this point, I just am curious if you're drunk, high or just trying to be funny and I'm missing the humor. That is an utterly amazing edit and I can not envision what line of thought could possibly have prompted it. —JabberWokky

You guys think I have some alterior motive. I just want to help epople fix their computer. Little be it for you to understand this but I help almost every single person that calls me and about half of those poeple just need some over the phone help. I like helping people fix thier computers and I'm sure they appriciate it too. I dont keep track of every little detail, plus I thought I was being given a fresh start. I posted it as real computer in the free section, thought about it for 5 minutes and then i was going to go back and change it to just say brian tangney and not real computer but willian had already deleted it. I dont understand what the big deal is if I list my name there. I do help people for free so its just a description of reality. But whatever, hate on me ... less poeple get their computers fixed .. not my loss.

2010-01-28 08:40:49 I help a lot of people for free. I am just trying to make that known. What is wrong with that? —RealComputers

We had this discussion and everyone but you agreed that it is inappropriate. —WilliamLewis
- I thought we agreed that real computer should not be in the free section but if I just list my name with not tie to real computers then whats wrong with that? I just want to help people fix their computers. I have no alterior motive. —RealComputers

2010-01-28 08:49:44 So you put back your "free" offer as a company. When I remove it, you put your name back under the free category, just like you did last time.

Please go read the discussion page I linked to, and, at the VERY LEAST, never edit Computer repair ever again. —WilliamLewis

I'll take your word for it. Maybe we did discuss that before, I honestly dont remember. You should have just sent me a nice comment about it instead of being a jerk, I would have taken it just as seriously.

2010-01-28 08:50:53 Thank you for asking Philip for the BrianTangney account. I understand why William is frustrated. I can't recall off the top of my head any edits you've made that weren't self serving. Recently the frequent editors who would rather be creating content and improving the wiki have been forced to focus on repairing damage by people who see the wiki as free high traffic web hosting for their business. You are in that category and will continue to have problems as long as you don't change your behavior. Also if you remove this comment from this page I will take it as a great personal insult, as I've taken the time to poke it out on a touch screen. Wait for Philip to reply, he is very busy right now working to improve Wiki Spot and will respond to your request when it is appropriate to do so (which may take weeks). Until then don't get yourself banned, and when you get the Brian account don't edit the page about your business until you've added at least five non computer related pages and have made at least fifty good edits. —JasonAller

well I'm going to delete it eventually but not right now. Thanks for being understanding though. And I am not a wiki editor, plus most of the edits I make are quite small and insignificant. Small format changes to make things flow better usually and thats all. I am not trying to upset anyone by trying to list MY NAME and NOT my business under the free section. I just want people to know that they can call me and get free help.

2010-01-28 09:16:09 Actually, by the mere fact that you're editing pages that makes you a "wiki editor". There is no "level" beyond "I edited something" that turns you into an editor. There are no other metrics. "wiki editors" here are a community, as has been explained, of anyone who has edited any pages at all even once to the people that edit constantly and devote a huge portion of their time to the service of the greater Davis good. —WesHardaker

2010-01-28 09:18:15 Your price list violates our non-profit agreement with the IRS. DO NOT RE-ADD PRICES. THIS IS SERIOUS! —WilliamLewis

2010-01-28 09:20:55 Since your banning, the wikispot (the organization that serves the DavisWiki) non-profit license. The new rules, which people have pointed out to you, at http://wikispot.org/Community_Guidelines/Business_promotion_questions , disallow wiki pages listing prices as the goal isn't for commercial advertising (quiet the opposite in fact). The rules are new enough that there are a lot of pages that don't meet the guidelines yet and are being transitioned. But prices are no longer appropriate on your companies page. —WesHardaker

2010-01-28 09:32:03 Your page is very promotional in nature. Please stop editing it to undo when I try to make it less so. —WilliamLewis

You are removing way more that you need to.

2010-01-28 09:34:10 What the heck? I removed the prices .. and now I am blocked from the real computers page? I am doing everything I am told to do, why am I being punished? —RealComputers

2010-01-28 09:40:13 925 area code? If you don't mind my asking, where are you from? Livermore here. —TomGarberson

2010-01-28 10:12:41 I am from Pleasanton —RealComputers

2010-01-28 10:20:33 Please stop removing lists of services. —JabberWokky

So you dont want me to remove the list of service from a different page but .. but its ok for them to be removed from the RC page? This is a DOUBLE STANDARD at its best.

What the heck are you talking about? As soon as they were removed, somebody said "no, I think they should be back". One person's edit does not create a "standard". Just because one person removed them does not mean most people agree with that. You and William seem to be the only two defending that position right now. -jw

Well I cant see the RC page cause you locked it so I dont know whats happened, so i guess never mind.

You can see it just fine. It just says "locked". That's the entire content of the page. -jw

Come on man, you know what I mean. - brian

No, I really don't. What happened is that it now says "locked." That is the current version of the page. You can see it just much as everybody else can see it. There was an escalating revert war and the page was locked for everybody. -jw

Alright well sorry for the confusion. I just want you to know that I am totally willing to follow everything people are telling me to do. We can remove services if they are too add like or whatever. I'm not opposed to what the community whats to do here at all.

2010-01-28 10:22:43 <- San Ramon. —EdWins A lot prittier there than here. At least they have hills.

2010-01-28 10:53:15 Do not remove someone else's comments from a discussion again. —WilliamLewis

2010-01-28 11:09:29 When you say, "There is literally nothing I can do to work with you on this, is there?" you've missed the point. The other editors on the wiki aren't out to get you, although you've done a heck of a job getting William riled up. The question you ask is the wrong one and I and JabberWokky have tried to point this out to you many times. The correct action to ask is not "How can I change everybody else", but rather "How do I need to change my own behavior". You've ignored and deleted so pretty helpful suggestions and continue to engage in a pattern of behavior that is going to get this account banned forever, and yourself banned for an unknown period of time. Stop. Wait for Philip to reply to your question. Think about what you can add to the wiki that doesn't have anything to do with your business or computers. If you can't think of anything go take a walk or bike ride. Then let me know what you can add to the wiki. —JasonAller

Look man, I have been asking for someone to respond to my compromise suggestion for a while now and people just keep telling me im being wrong. NO IM NOT. I'm trying to work with you guys and do what you want me to do. That cant be wrong. I have said it many times now but I will say it again. I am down to remove stuff from the RC page to make it less ad like and whatever else needs to be done. You guys tell me over and over how I should do things differently and try to work with editors, well im triyng really hard and no one replies. Its like im invisable when I try to make positive progress but I stand out more than the sun for everything else.

Part of the problem is, there is no one thing that people "want you to do". There are different people with different views, and they are all trying to communicate, not dictate or be dictated to. For instance, Tom and I like the list of services. You and William don't like them listed. So, in order to figure out what to do, it's not a simple case of just "doing what people want", because as a cooperating and communicating group of people, we all need to work a solution between a dozen different opinions of what is the right thing to do. There's no single "right way", but there is a working process of communication and patience that is important. Patience is what Jason is pointing out most of all... go away from the wiki. Not because people don't want you here, but because you need to calm down before actual communication can occur. You don't seem to understand what the wiki is (a community of people), and you need to step back, calm down and approach things with an open mind free of prior conceptions... because what you've got right now isn't working out well for you. -jw

I want the service listed but I am willing to let that go if it help us all compromise. - Brian

Wow. You really just missed everything Jason said, and now you just missed everything I said. -jw
- no I didnt, I just didnt have anything else to add at the time. - Brian

2010-01-28 12:11:57 I don't know what the question for me was, but: occasional prices are okay. Price lists (say, maybe more than 2) generally fall into the "i'm promoting a for-profit business" category. There's exceptions. —PhilipNeustrom

2010-01-29 06:41:03 So my question still is unanswered: what can you add to the wiki? There are plenty of ways to make positive contributions to the wiki. Can you tell me what you've decided to do? —JasonAller

You've asked a question. But you haven't answered Jason's question. People are waiting to see if you are willing to become someone who works on other pages and collaborates with other editors, and not just take up other editors' time with his constant fiddling to the page for his own business. —CovertProfessor the phone number or website URL or something.

2010-01-30 10:06:12 Basically, nobody wants you to be involved in the editing of Real Computers but you. Leave it alone. Everything will be ok, I promise. You won't go out of business just because you can't control every jot and tittle on that page. —WilliamLewis

I'm not worried about editing the page but it would be nice if it were restored to some from that at least says more than locked.

2010-01-30 11:30:58 Actually, it is exceedingly rare. To be very clear: you are one of only a few — maybe three or so — business owners in the six years the wiki has been around who has ever made purely commercial demands like these and utterly blinded themselves to the fact that they are members of a greater community (and I'm not talking about the wiki community — I'm talking about the people around you). So, no... it isn't common at all, and it is highly vexing that you refuse to listen to anybody who is trying to reach out and communicate with you, only seeing things in terms of controlling words on a page on a website. —JabberWokky

I dont know why u r saying I refuse to listen to anybody. I have listened to everything you guys said to me recently. It only got so weird because william lewis was so impatient with me but even then i heard what he said and after just checking to find out if it is true I followed suit. I dont even want to edit the RC page but I want it to say more than locked.

2010-01-30 13:58:37 Couldnt you keep the RC page locked without removing all of its content? I'm not going to jump on and start editing once its unlocked. If you guys want the services to be there, put them there. If not, dont. I dont care, its up to the community. —RealComputers

History says otherwise. Are you going to answer my question? —JasonAller
- well I noticed the discussion going on about bizzaro world so I offered my opinion on that issue. Hope its helpful but just ignore it if not. I certainly do not want to complicate that matter. Is that an example of helping the wiki?
  - Speaking for myself, I was glad to see you editing another page. However, the page you chose to edit had quite a long history (as you admitted) and so I think your comment wasn't as helpful as it could have been if you'd gone through all of the history of the controversy. There are a lot of pages that you could edit, though, which don't require knowing all of that history — pages that have nothing to do with businesses, even. Then you would really show the other editors that promoting your own business is not the only reason you're on the wiki. People would be much more receptive to your comments if you demonstrated through your edits to a variety of pages that you understood the nature of the wiki. —CovertProfessor

2010-01-30 14:07:27 I thought your suggestion about Bizarro World was helpful. —NickSchmalenberger

well thank you. I was genuinely trying to help because I can totally see where the BZ world owner is coming from but because I am not connected to that business it really allowed me to get a better perspective what this sort of thing is like from the view point of you guys who are trying to maintain the wiki from a non business oriented view point. In part thats why I am now saying do whatever you like to the RC page. Service or not, its cool.

2010-01-30 14:19:12 From my perspective, it seems like you've chilled out and been reasonable for the last couple of days. Glad to see you contributing on some other pages, too. —TomGarberson

2010-01-30 14:21:11 You have come a long way from this edit to this one. Please take a moment to compare them. They were both written by the same person, but at two very different stages of that person's life. Honestly maybe my standards were too high in expecting that you'd answer "Yes, I intend to add some photos to pages that don't have them when the weather clears" or "Yes, I want to add the wiki and now that I've learned more about it I'm going to expand my focus so that I'm not just editing pages about Real Computers". —JasonAller

when I first discovered the wiki, I had no idea what it was. - Brian

2010-02-01 08:19:37 Brian, one suggestion: cool it for a bit. Relax, stop posting on anything related to RC for a day or two, and let people calm down. One post asking about getting it unlocked was fine. A second as a reminder when nothing was done was fine. But now, even to a third party, it comes across as pestering. And pestering is never a good way to get things accomplished. I was in agreement with you before that it should be unlocked, and I still am, but now I can definitely understand if the admins are annoyed enough to not be particularly accommodating. Try to go 48 hours without posting about it. Give people some time. I'll bet JW will unlock it... and pestering isn't going to speed it up. —TomGarberson

I will follow your suggestion but are you guys not reading what I am writing? I asked once or twice for it to be unlocked yes, and JW responded to that and that was fine but then I asked if the page can remain locked with some content and since asking that question I have not goten an answer but several other people have come by to tell me to stop asking for it to be unlocked. Once again, I am not asking for it to be unlocked, just for some content to be restored.
- I know, and I don't blame you. But if JW isn't going to do it, he's not going to do it and hassling him and others isn't going to help. And if he is going to do it but hasn't gotten around to it, it's certainly not going to speed it up. It might even annoy him enough to change his mind about restoring it right away. -tg

yea, good call. On a side note, lots of people have suggested that I find some was to help the wiki. I have been looking around but nothing really stands out to me. Any suggestions?

I was too slow on my post over on Wiki Help... but have a look at the To Do list. -tg

2010-02-01 08:42:12 I would suggest stepping away from the wiki and thinking carefully about what you might know more about than anyone else in town/ on the wiki. Then sit down and type it out in a Word file. Leave it for a day. Read it again. When it looks good and ready, post it. Right now, your manic changes like "sanwhiches" are not helping your cause. —Risky

I dont claim to be good at this but I am trying. - Brian

2010-02-01 09:59:34 Actually, a sandwiches page was a good idea. It's just that you misspelled "sandwiches", and there already is a sandwiches page. But you don't need to create a new page to contribute. You could add content to an existing page. You might want to run it through a spellchecker first — I mean this in the kindest way possible. —CovertProfessor

2010-02-01 10:46:30 If you are using Firefox go to about:config (type that in the address bar) and find the layout.spellcheckDefault setting and change it to 2. Then firefox will underline your spelling mistakes in red and a right click will let you select the right spelling. —JasonAller

2010-02-01 21:16:50 I am a terrible speller. —RealComputers

Comments removed from page by RealComputers

2010-02-21 09:35:19 "Also if you remove this comment from this page I will take it as a great personal insult, as I've taken the time to poke it out on a touch screen." I left that in there for a reason. You still haven't switched to the BrianTangney account. If you can't provide a good reason for your comment deletions I'm tempted to create a comment archive for you either under this page or in a namespace that you don't have claim to. —JasonAller

How long do you want me to leave this comment here? I removed it along with everything else because it was an old conversation. Also, I asked PhillipN if I he would make the Brian Tangney account usable and I did not ever see a reply.
Actually I came up with another solution to your removal of comments. I did so only after you removed the comment that I asked you to leave. You should try asking Philip politely again, as he was very busy when you asked him the last time. —JasonAller

2010-03-05 09:20:09 re: Prices link, as I recall, I suggested the existing language and you supported that. Do you really think people won't be able to find prices? Give your potential customers a little credit.

re: the language of restoring settings, CP's version is far more clear. "Back to default" is pretty vague for someone who isn't familiar with reformatting and the like. The existing language is excellent. Please leave it. —TomGarberson

2010-03-08 15:44:42 No, it did originally come from that page. What's more, it's the one lone useful bit of information on there. Why don't you want there? —TomGarberson

I dont care either way, I just thought it origionally came from a talk page. Felt like I rembered seeing it from somwhere else but im not sure at all so do whatever you think is best.

2010-03-08 15:50:06 So why delete it??? You KNOW that a deletion of comments is going to raise a red flag. You complain about all the criticism you get. Doesn't it occur to you that you are bringing this all on yourself? No, you still consider yourself to be the injured party. LEAVE THE $%#$ PAGE ALONE FOR AWHILE!! —CovertProfessor

Relax man, I removed it because I thought someone moved it there from a different page. I mean it wasnt there before, and its clearly not the most recent comment.

But why?? You're just asking for trouble. Can't you see that? You didn't even bother to check the edit history to see where it came from — you just deleted it. You're like a kid who keeps poking a stick at a hornet's nest, and then wonders why he got stung. —CovertProfessor

2010-03-08 16:30:03 I wasn't arguing with you, I was making your point. —DonShor

2010-03-08 17:14:00 I reset the disabled flag on the BrianTangney account - you should be able to use it now. Let me know if you run into an issue. —PhilipNeustrom

Do I just make it as a new account or is there a password for it?

Try it as a new account. If you can't (if it's taken), we'll go from there. Philip's happy to help, but he's often busy. -jw

2010-12-03 14:12:13 The max price is fine (in my opinion, anyway). It's purely information, rather than promotional. —TomGarberson

2011-02-20 20:48:31 Absolutely! Remember, the goal is to document Davis. If the business's name is all caps, it should be all caps here on the wiki. If they don't use all caps, it shouldn't be all caps here on the wiki. Make sure to rename the page title to lowercase as well (if you're sure the name isn't in caps). The wiki reflects the actual Davis community. —JabberWokky

2011-02-20 21:02:35 Don't forget to rename and edit the actual entry for IFix Computers to correct the name there! —JabberWokky

2011-02-21 09:36:38 Brian — are you going to make those corrections for the title case you noticed was wrong? It was a good observation, but I notice you still haven't updated the entry to reflect what you found. —JabberWokky

2011-02-22 22:01:07 Are you under the impression that Bruce is the owner of iFIX ELECTRONICS? —JasonAller

— Yes I am under that impression, or was when I commented.

2011-02-22 22:04:23 Apparently the BrianTangney account is already taken, I just tried to make a new account but I could not. —RealComputers

The BrianTangney account is waiting for you to contact an admin and request a password reset. —JasonAller
- ~~I can do this if you would like, Brian.~~ If I can find the person who created it, I can do this for you easily. -jw
  - http://daviswiki.org/Users/JonathanLawton?action=diff&version2=26&version1=24 —JasonAller
    - Got it. I can't reset it right now, but I'll get it done within the next day. -jw

2011-02-22 22:17:24 Since the last time I commented on your profile page, Bruce has noticed that the sign is in all caps. The real world capitalization should probably have more weight than the use on the website. After all, it is an actual Davis business, not just a website. Regarding William's comment, although his wording was rather harsh, he's pretty much echoing common sentiment. You've been rather self-serving in most of your editing here, and you have — through your actions — earned quite a bit of distrust from your fellow editors. I'm not saying this to make you feel bad, but cooperative editing involves working with people, and you've established a reputation as being very selfish and egocentric in your actions here on the wiki, trying to promote your company rather than be part of the Davis community. I encouraged you to edit at the time because it would have been a positive contribution to a topic on the wiki other than your own business. Since then, Bruce has observed new information, so it is back to being unclear as to which is the proper capitalization. This is not theoretical logic games or about being fair... it is simply about being honest and trying to figure out — working together — the actual title of the business in the Davis community and making it match on the Davis Wiki. —JabberWokky

Well maybe we can have a discussion and decide on a general rule. I think it should be a rule for the Daviswiki as a whole that on a page that has a list of businesses, those business listing should be as fair to eachother as they can be and no one business should be able to have all caps on the wiki. Yes that does serve my interest but it also serves the interest of fairness.

While it is true that most of what I do on the wiki is centered around the real computers listing, that does not mean I dont care about fairness, and I think it is important to note that when I was on the wiki in the past I was met with much hostility and rudeness which became a continually escalating battle in which many of the things you said in the comment I am now responding to could have been said about most of the people invloved. I Hope we can start fresh.

To everyone: I openly admit that I care more about the real computers listing than other aspect of the wiki but I also will not do things that are unfair to others. If I make any edits it will be with a good reason that is back in logic based on the info avaliable. It will not be simply to help myself or discredit other listings.

How can we "start fresh" when you've come back with exactly the same attitude and behavior that got everyone angry in the first place? You've only appeared again because you are concerned about your business. Don't even pretend that you would have made an edit about a business using all-caps if it was another sort of business. —CovertProfessor
- Yes I came back to check on the real computers listing .. and noticed something I thought was unfair. I do admit that I checked on this because it affects me but that does not mean I am wrong for doing so. Why is it a problem for me to focus on one aspect of the wiki so long as I do so logically? I have stated reasons backed with logic based on avaliable info for every edit Ive made recently. I think simply because I am invested in this matter you assume I am wrong and I dont think thats a fair assumption for you or anyone else to make. I dont see why it need be an issue that I am invested in this matter from a business perspective. i am not being unfair to anyone.
  - I am not going to repeat conversations that I and others have had with you many times. You didn't listen then and I don't see you giving any evidence that you are willing to listen now. It's not that you are wrong; you may be wrong and you may be right. It's that you have no credibility here, based on your past and present actions. As JW noted, you fail to realize that this is a community working towards something for Davis, and you have utterly failed to work with that community. —CovertProfessor

2011-03-14 11:51:56 Why add the info about the 20% discount for students to one page but remove it from another? —Wes-P

It seemed like the summary for real computers was too long so I removed that part. plus I olny offer 20% discounts on service that are $100 and I only have one service that is that expensive. Is that reasonable? I think so.

So you only offer a 20% discount on services that are over $100.00 and this is only on the system restoration? Seems pricey for a system restoration. Heck, many places will do a system restoration for much less than this. This information is based on your page :

"The most Real Computers will charge for a single repair is $100." "System restoration - repairs all non-physical problems such as boot failure, corrupt OS, viruses, blue screen, etc. Data such as documents, pictures and music will be saved. Programs not included with windows will need to be reinstalled. Users may need to reconfigure their personal settings as they will not be preserved in some cases and in such cases they will revert to windows defaults. Student can recieve a 20% discount on this service. "

Just seems to be worth mentioning this on the page if this is, in fact the case. Otherwise it just seems like trickery to me.

I dont understand whats tricky about it? The discount only applies to one service so I made that more clear instead of making it seem like it applied to more. I think this is certainly a more modest form of the information so I do not understand why there would be any issue..

2011-03-14 13:32:31 Please stop. Please change to the other account. Please don't tell people that an issue is resolved just because you are satisfied with your answer; things aren't resolved until both parties reach that point. —JasonAller

I had thought it was resolved but either way it was a subject that belongs on a talk page. I have tried to change to the other account but it is taken and I have not heard from the person who has it. All I wanted to do here today was update a little info about discounts and now I am being sucked in to all this. Please dont comment on here as if I am trying to start an argument. I just want this to end so I can go do something else...

2011-03-14 13:42:47 If you want this all to go away, stop fiddling with your damn page. No one is seeking you out, believe me. —CovertProfessor

2011-03-14 14:48:14 Dude, resolve it with him and then the comment can/will be removed by Jim. K? Otherwise it's just gonna keep getting reverted. —OliviaY

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